Orbit

Hi Vivek, Let's make it clear where our interpretation differs then. If an LIR leases the addresses out to a non-connected customer and creates an Roa for that purpose and also an assignment for that purpose would that LIR be violating any APNIC policy or contract? And would that activity provide a reason for revocation of those resources?Regards MikeSent from my T-Mobile 4G LTE Device -------- Original message --------From: Vivek Nigam vivek@apnic.net Date: 6/15/22 2:33 AM (GMT-05:00) To: Mike Burns mike@iptrading.com, 'Mike Burns' mike@sum.net, 'Gaurav Kansal' gaurav.kansal@nic.in, 'Karl Kloppenborg' karl@rapidwireless.com.au Cc: raquel.w@ipv4-vault.com, mailman_apnic-transfers apnic-transfers@apnic.net Subject: Re: [apnic-transfers] Re: /16 Lease

Hi Mike,   Our interpretation of this policy is different. Policy (5.2.2) applies to LIR type members. The policy says LIRs 'may' delegate address space to their downstream customers because LIRs can assign address space to their own network infrastructure as well as to users of their network services.   https://www.apnic.net/community/policy/resources#2.1.3.-Local-Internet-Regis...)   When LIRs delegate addresses to their downstream customers, they are considered non-portable and must be returned to the LIR if the downstream customer ceases to receive connectivity from the LIR.   Any Members that are leasing their address space are doing it outside the APNIC policy framework. If the community wishes to include provisions for leasing, proposals can be submitted to the Policy SIG for community discussion.   Thanks Vivek

From: Mike Burns mike@iptrading.com Date: Tuesday, 14 June 2022 at 3:37 am To: Vivek Nigam vivek@apnic.net, 'Mike Burns' mike@sum.net, 'Gaurav Kansal' gaurav.kansal@nic.in, 'Karl Kloppenborg' karl@rapidwireless.com.au Cc: raquel.w@ipv4-vault.com raquel.w@ipv4-vault.com, mailman_apnic-transfers apnic-transfers@apnic.net Subject: RE: [apnic-transfers] Re: /16 Lease

Hi Vivek,   Sorry for the delay in replying and thanks for your input. As an APNIC registered broker it’s important that we understand the policies completely so I want to clarify things if possible.   My reading of your linked policy (5.2.2) does not prevent the assignment of subnets to non-connected customers.

It says that assignments “may”  be made to “downstream customers , which are operating networks, such as ISPs,..”.

That is quite different from saying assignments “may not” be made to lessees (or anybody). Nor is there mention of a circuit or a definition of downstream anywhere. In terms of address allocation, lessees are downstream customers.

You have already acknowledged below that an ROA can be created by the resource holder for any ASN, and if my reading above is correct it means that the resource holder can in fact create both an ROA and an assignment for the lessee.

So an APNIC ISP member can lease addresses to a lessee who uses them on an operational network, create an ROA for the lessee, and create an assignment so the lessee’s contact information is recorded in Whois. (With the exception of the final /8 blocks for the first 5  years.) All without violating policy.

But that APNIC member may not use leased-out addresses to justify receipt of new transfers.

Do you agree with this interpretation of policy and contract? Since you are staff at APNIC I think it is important to hear from you.

Note I am not talking about fraud in justifications, such as justifying receipt of a transfer for claimed internal purposes and then leasing it out immediately.

Regards, Mike

From: Vivek Nigam vivek@apnic.net

Sent: Thursday, June 09, 2022 2:56 AM To: Mike Burns mike@sum.net; Gaurav Kansal gaurav.kansal@nic.in; Karl Kloppenborg karl@rapidwireless.com.au Cc: raquel.w@ipv4-vault.com; mailman_apnic-transfers apnic-transfers@apnic.net Subject: [apnic-transfers] Re: /16 Lease

Hi Mike,   APNIC Members can create ROAs for their addresses with any ASN they have authorized. When addresses are transferred to an APNIC Member, those addresses are added to the Member’s resource certificate which enables them to create ROAs. Since APNIC policy does not have provisions for leasing, APNIC Members that are leasing addresses need to rely on the registered holder for these services.   You are correct that APNIC policy does not say anything about leasing. What the policy says is that APNIC Members who have received IP allocations can delegate address space to their downstream customers to whom they provide connectivity.   https://www.apnic.net/community/policy/resources#5.2.2.-IPv4-Delegations-to-...   If the community wishes to change APNIC address policy to permit assignments without connectivity, proposals can be submitted to the Policy SIG.   Thanks Vivek

From: Mike Burns mike@sum.net Date: Thursday, 9 June 2022 at 2:50 am To: Vivek Nigam vivek@apnic.net, Gaurav Kansal gaurav.kansal@nic.in, Karl Kloppenborg karl@rapidwireless.com.au Cc: raquel.w@ipv4-vault.com raquel.w@ipv4-vault.com, mailman_apnic-transfers apnic-transfers@apnic.net Subject: RE: [apnic-transfers] Re: /16 Lease

Hi Vivek,

Thanks for your reply and for the clarification on the final / 8 which we know has special characteristics. Otherwise nothing you've written prevents leasing. All you've said is that certain Support Services which may be useful for leasing will not be provided.

So to be clear leasing is not mentioned nor prohibited in APNIC policy anywhere nor in the registration services agreement.

In actuality members who no longer need their addresses have the option to transfer them or to return them or  lease them out.

To be clear, are you saying that APNIC will not allow a member to generate an ROA with an ASN not belonging to that member?

As to whois registration, I'm pretty sure members can do assignments to their clients with or without a circuit.

Can you be more clear on what services will be denied to those who attempt to lease out their addresses?

Regards

Mike

Sent from my T-Mobile 4G LTE Device

-------- Original message --------

From: Vivek Nigam vivek@apnic.net

Date: 6/8/22 7:13 AM (GMT-05:00)

To: Gaurav Kansal gaurav.kansal@nic.in, Karl Kloppenborg karl@rapidwireless.com.au

Cc: raquel.w@ipv4-vault.com, mailman_apnic-transfers apnic-transfers@apnic.net

Subject: [apnic-transfers] Re: /16 Lease

Hi Mike and all, APNIC delegates IP addresses to Members based on their demonstrated need. What Members can do with that address space once it is no longer needed is impacted by policy requirements. I will provide two examples. Example 1: Addresses delegated from the last /8 pool cannot be transferred for a minimum of five years. During that time, if the reason for the original request is no longer valid, the resources must be returned to APNIC. https://www.apnic.net/community/policy/resources#8.0.-IPv4-Transfers https://www.apnic.net/community/policy/resources#4.0.-Resource-License So in this instance, if a Member leases out their IP addresses within five years of receiving the delegation from APNIC, they are clearly not needed for their original declared purpose and must be returned to APNIC. Example 2: For addresses delegated to a Member more than five years ago, if a Member no longer has the need for the address space, APNIC policy says the Member can choose to transfer it to another organization or return it to APNIC. APNIC policy does not have provisions for leasing. So in the second example, APNIC Members leasing addresses would be doing so outside the policy framework and will not receive APNIC services such as whois registration and RPKI/ROA access related to those addresses. This in turn may make it difficult to freely utilise those addresses on the Internet, due to lack of clear authorisation and a reliance on the registered holder (lessor) to assist. Of course, if the addresses being leased were not delegated by APNIC, then the relevant RIR’s policies apply to those addresses.

If the community wishes to change APNIC address policy to either include or clarify provisions for leasing, proposals can be submitted to the Policy SIG for community discussion. Thanks Vivek

From: Gaurav Kansal gaurav.kansal@nic.in Date: Wednesday, 8 June 2022 at 1:26 pm To: Karl Kloppenborg karl@rapidwireless.com.au Cc: raquel.w@ipv4-vault.com raquel.w@ipv4-vault.com, Vivek Nigam vivek@apnic.net, mailman_apnic-transfers apnic-transfers@apnic.net Subject: Re: [apnic-transfers] Re: /16 Lease

Hi Karl,

Totally agrees on your words.

At least APNIC should not promote IPv4 auctions, leases and all other dirty stuff.

Why can’t we have a policy in APNIC to not to allow IPV4 auctions/leases and only allow transfers after proper scrutiny.

But money can do anything and i am doubtful whether apnic will even agrees on our points.

Thanks

Gaurav Kansal

On 08-Jun-2022, at 08:50, apnic-transfers@apnic.net wrote:



The fact of the matter is, why are leases and auctions even a thing?   If you don’t need the resource anymore, doing the right thing and handing it back allows companies like myself to be able to continue operating and pushes further the move to IPv6.   We simply don’t have the funds to participate in auctions and frankly, we shouldn’t have too.   It is a failure of NIC’ registrars around the world that they’ve forgone the push to IPv6 and instead made a pay-to-play, everyone for themselves environment where only the wealthy and large carriers can play.   The fact that companies like IPv4-Auctions, IPv4-Vault, IPTrading, etc even exist underscore just how disgusting this system has become.   APNIC and all the other registrars should be ashamed of themselves.

Kind Regards, Karl Kloppenborg.

From: Raquel Wellington raquel.w@ipv4-vault.com Date: Wednesday, 8 June 2022 at 5:37 am To: Mike Burns mike@iptrading.com, 'Vivek Nigam' vivek@apnic.net, 'mailman_apnic-transfers' apnic-transfers@apnic.net Subject: [apnic-transfers] Re: /16 Lease

Thank you Mike and Vivek for the points made.   Vivek – why is there such a concern with a lease conversation?  Some members are unable to perform a transfer due to lack of budgets, so lease might be their only option…   Is there a mailing list where we can post about lease?

And does the transfer mailing list allow post about selling IPs, since that is directly related to a transfer?

From: Mike Burns mike@iptrading.com Date: Monday, June 6, 2022 at 7:48 AM To: 'Vivek Nigam' vivek@apnic.net, Raquel Wellington raquel.w@ipv4-vault.com, 'mailman_apnic-transfers' apnic-transfers@apnic.net Subject: RE: [apnic-transfers] Re: /16 Lease

Hi Vivek,   There is such a thing as a lease-to-own transfer, which ends up as a transfer. And there are those who might be considering transfer versus lease, and that definitely comports with the Charter for this list, which requires “topics relevant to IPv4 transfers”.   Everything you wrote below is true and factual but deftly elides the meaningful point, which is that leasing is not prohibited at APNIC. (Although leased-out addresses would not count towards justifying a new purchase.)   If I am wrong, please let us know by telling us what law, policy or contract term with APNIC would be violated by an APNIC resource holder leasing blocks to non-connected customers. And would that subject them to revocation risk?   Thanks and regards,   Mike Burns IPTrading.com

From: Vivek Nigam vivek@apnic.net

Sent: Sunday, June 05, 2022 9:34 PM To: Raquel Wellington raquel.w@ipv4-vault.com; mailman_apnic-transfers apnic-transfers@apnic.net Subject: [apnic-transfers] Re: /16 Lease

Hi Raquel,   APNIC policy does not have any provisions for leasing of IP addresses on their own. There was a policy proposal for temporary transfer prop-119 but it did not reach consensus and was withdrawn by the author.   https://www.apnic.net/community/policy/proposals/prop-119   APNIC Members can delegate address space to their downstream customers, which are operating networks. Such delegations are non-portable and must be returned to the Member if the downstream customer ceases to receive connectivity from the Member.   We have a transfer policy which allows the transfer of unused IPv4 address between APNIC Members as well as other RIR members. For more information, see   https://www.apnic.net/transfer   Please note the IPv4 transfers mailing list is only for the discussion of transfers, not leasing.   APNIC Transfers Charter: The APNIC Transfer mailing list was created to provide a forum enabling the sources and recipients of IPv4 address transfers, as well as IPv4 brokers, to discuss topics relevant to IPv4 transfers.   Hope this information helps.   Regards, Vivek

From: Raquel Wellington raquel.w@ipv4-vault.com Date: Saturday, 4 June 2022 at 8:49 am To: mailman_apnic-transfers apnic-transfers@apnic.net Subject: [apnic-transfers] /16 Lease

Hello all,   We have a clean /16 available for lease….

Please let us know if you have any interest 😊   IPv4 Vault LLC Raquel Wellington Asset Recovery Specialist +1 (424) 258-4758 raquel.w@ipv4-vault.com     _______________________________________________ apnic-transfers - https://mailman.apnic.net/apnic-transfers@apnic.net/ To unsubscribe send an email to apnic-transfers-leave@apnic.net