Orbit

Hi Vivek,

There is such a thing as a lease-to-own transfer, which ends up as a transfer. And there are those who might be considering transfer versus lease, and that definitely comports with the Charter for this list, which requires “topics relevant to IPv4 transfers”.

Everything you wrote below is true and factual but deftly elides the meaningful point, which is that leasing is not prohibited at APNIC.

(Although leased-out addresses would not count towards justifying a new purchase.)

If I am wrong, please let us know by telling us what law, policy or contract term with APNIC would be violated by an APNIC resource holder leasing blocks to non-connected customers. And would that subject them to revocation risk?

Thanks and regards,

Mike Burns

IPTrading.com

Hi Raquel,

APNIC policy does not have any provisions for leasing of IP addresses on their own. There was a policy proposal for temporary transfer prop-119 but it did not reach consensus and was withdrawn by the author.

https://www.apnic.net/community/policy/proposals/prop-119

APNIC Members can delegate address space to their downstream customers, which are operating networks. Such delegations are non-portable and must be returned to the Member if the downstream customer ceases to receive connectivity from the Member.

We have a transfer policy which allows the transfer of unused IPv4 address between APNIC Members as well as other RIR members. For more information, see

https://www.apnic.net/transfer

Please note the IPv4 transfers mailing list is only for the discussion of transfers, not leasing.

APNIC Transfers Charter:

The APNIC Transfer mailing list was created to provide a forum enabling the sources and recipients of IPv4 address transfers, as well as IPv4 brokers, to discuss topics relevant to IPv4 transfers.

Hope this information helps.

Regards,

Vivek

Hello all,

We have a clean /16 available for lease….

Please let us know if you have any interest 😊

IPv4 Vault LLC
Raquel Wellington
Asset Recovery Specialist
+1 (424) 258-4758
raquel.w@ipv4-vault.com

The fact of the matter is, why are leases and auctions even a thing?

If you don’t need the resource anymore, doing the right thing and handing it back allows companies like myself to be able to continue operating and pushes further the move to IPv6.

We simply don’t have the funds to participate in auctions and frankly, we shouldn’t have too.

It is a failure of NIC’ registrars around the world that they’ve forgone the push to IPv6 and instead made a pay-to-play, everyone for themselves environment where only the wealthy and large carriers can play.

The fact that companies like IPv4-Auctions, IPv4-Vault, IPTrading, etc even exist underscore just how disgusting this system has become.

APNIC and all the other registrars should be ashamed of themselves.

Thank you Mike and Vivek for the points made.

Vivek – why is there such a concern with a lease conversation?  Some members are unable to perform a transfer due to lack of budgets, so lease might be their only option…

Is there a mailing list where we can post about lease?

And does the transfer mailing list allow post about selling IPs, since that is directly related to a transfer?

Hi Vivek,

There is such a thing as a lease-to-own transfer, which ends up as a transfer. And there are those who might be considering transfer versus lease, and that definitely comports with the Charter for this list, which requires “topics relevant to IPv4 transfers”.

Everything you wrote below is true and factual but deftly elides the meaningful point, which is that leasing is not prohibited at APNIC.

(Although leased-out addresses would not count towards justifying a new purchase.)

If I am wrong, please let us know by telling us what law, policy or contract term with APNIC would be violated by an APNIC resource holder leasing blocks to non-connected customers. And would that subject them to revocation risk?

Thanks and regards,

Mike Burns

IPTrading.com

Hi Raquel,

APNIC policy does not have any provisions for leasing of IP addresses on their own. There was a policy proposal for temporary transfer prop-119 but it did not reach consensus and was withdrawn by the author.

https://www.apnic.net/community/policy/proposals/prop-119

APNIC Members can delegate address space to their downstream customers, which are operating networks. Such delegations are non-portable and must be returned to the Member if the downstream customer ceases to receive connectivity from the Member.

We have a transfer policy which allows the transfer of unused IPv4 address between APNIC Members as well as other RIR members. For more information, see

https://www.apnic.net/transfer

Please note the IPv4 transfers mailing list is only for the discussion of transfers, not leasing.

APNIC Transfers Charter:

The APNIC Transfer mailing list was created to provide a forum enabling the sources and recipients of IPv4 address transfers, as well as IPv4 brokers, to discuss topics relevant to IPv4 transfers.

Hope this information helps.

Regards,

Vivek

Hello all,

We have a clean /16 available for lease….

Please let us know if you have any interest 😊

IPv4 Vault LLC
Raquel Wellington
Asset Recovery Specialist
+1 (424) 258-4758
raquel.w@ipv4-vault.com

Hi Mike and all,

APNIC delegates IP addresses to Members based on their demonstrated need. What Members can do with that address space once it is no longer needed is impacted by policy requirements. I will provide two examples.

Example 1: Addresses delegated from the last /8 pool cannot be transferred for a minimum of five years. During that time, if the reason for the original request is no longer valid, the resources must be returned to APNIC.

https://www.apnic.net/community/policy/resources#8.0.-IPv4-Transfers

https://www.apnic.net/community/policy/resources#4.0.-Resource-License

So in this instance, if a Member leases out their IP addresses within five years of receiving the delegation from APNIC, they are clearly not needed for their original declared purpose and must be returned to APNIC.

Example 2: For addresses delegated to a Member more than five years ago, if a Member no longer has the need for the address space, APNIC policy says the Member can choose to transfer it to another organization or return it to APNIC. APNIC policy does not have provisions for leasing. So in the second example, APNIC Members leasing addresses would be doing so outside the policy framework and will not receive APNIC services such as whois registration and RPKI/ROA access related to those addresses. This in turn may make it difficult to freely utilise those addresses on the Internet, due to lack of clear authorisation and a reliance on the registered holder (lessor) to assist.

Of course, if the addresses being leased were not delegated by APNIC, then the relevant RIR’s policies apply to those addresses.

If the community wishes to change APNIC address policy to either include or clarify provisions for leasing, proposals can be submitted to the Policy SIG for community discussion.

Thanks

Vivek



The fact of the matter is, why are leases and auctions even a thing?

 

If you don’t need the resource anymore, doing the right thing and handing it back allows companies like myself to be able to continue operating and pushes further the move to IPv6.

 

We simply don’t have the funds to participate in auctions and frankly, we shouldn’t have too.

 

It is a failure of NIC’ registrars around the world that they’ve forgone the push to IPv6 and instead made a pay-to-play, everyone for themselves environment where only the wealthy and large carriers can play.

 

The fact that companies like IPv4-Auctions, IPv4-Vault, IPTrading, etc even exist underscore just how disgusting this system has become.

 

APNIC and all the other registrars should be ashamed of themselves.

 

 

Kind Regards,

Karl Kloppenborg.

 

From: Raquel Wellington <raquel.w@ipv4-vault.com>
Date: Wednesday, 8 June 2022 at 5:37 am
To: Mike Burns <mike@iptrading.com>, 'Vivek Nigam' <vivek@apnic.net>, 'mailman_apnic-transfers' <apnic-transfers@apnic.net>
Subject: [apnic-transfers] Re: /16 Lease

Thank you Mike and Vivek for the points made.

 

Vivek – why is there such a concern with a lease conversation?  Some members are unable to perform a transfer due to lack of budgets, so lease might be their only option…

 

Is there a mailing list where we can post about lease?

And does the transfer mailing list allow post about selling IPs, since that is directly related to a transfer?

 

From: Mike Burns <mike@iptrading.com>
Date: Monday, June 6, 2022 at 7:48 AM
To: 'Vivek Nigam' <vivek@apnic.net>, Raquel Wellington <raquel.w@ipv4-vault.com>, 'mailman_apnic-transfers' <apnic-transfers@apnic.net>
Subject: RE: [apnic-transfers] Re: /16 Lease

Hi Vivek,

 

There is such a thing as a lease-to-own transfer, which ends up as a transfer. And there are those who might be considering transfer versus lease, and that definitely comports with the Charter for this list, which requires “topics relevant to IPv4 transfers”.

 

Everything you wrote below is true and factual but deftly elides the meaningful point, which is that leasing is not prohibited at APNIC.

(Although leased-out addresses would not count towards justifying a new purchase.)

 

If I am wrong, please let us know by telling us what law, policy or contract term with APNIC would be violated by an APNIC resource holder leasing blocks to non-connected customers. And would that subject them to revocation risk?

 

Thanks and regards,

 

Mike Burns

IPTrading.com

 

 

From: Vivek Nigam <vivek@apnic.net>
Sent: Sunday, June 05, 2022 9:34 PM
To: Raquel Wellington <raquel.w@ipv4-vault.com>; mailman_apnic-transfers <apnic-transfers@apnic.net>
Subject: [apnic-transfers] Re: /16 Lease

 

Hi Raquel,

 

APNIC policy does not have any provisions for leasing of IP addresses on their own. There was a policy proposal for temporary transfer prop-119 but it did not reach consensus and was withdrawn by the author.

 

https://www.apnic.net/community/policy/proposals/prop-119

 

APNIC Members can delegate address space to their downstream customers, which are operating networks. Such delegations are non-portable and must be returned to the Member if the downstream customer ceases to receive connectivity from the Member.

 

We have a transfer policy which allows the transfer of unused IPv4 address between APNIC Members as well as other RIR members. For more information, see

 

https://www.apnic.net/transfer

 

Please note the IPv4 transfers mailing list is only for the discussion of transfers, not leasing.

 

APNIC Transfers Charter:

The APNIC Transfer mailing list was created to provide a forum enabling the sources and recipients of IPv4 address transfers, as well as IPv4 brokers, to discuss topics relevant to IPv4 transfers.

 

Hope this information helps.

 

Regards,

Vivek

 

From: Raquel Wellington <raquel.w@ipv4-vault.com>
Date: Saturday, 4 June 2022 at 8:49 am
To: mailman_apnic-transfers <apnic-transfers@apnic.net>
Subject: [apnic-transfers] /16 Lease

Hello all,

 

We have a clean /16 available for lease….

 

Please let us know if you have any interest 😊

 

IPv4 Vault LLC
Raquel Wellington
Asset Recovery Specialist
+1 (424) 258-4758
raquel.w@ipv4-vault.com

 

 

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To unsubscribe send an email to apnic-transfers-leave@apnic.net

Hi Gaurav,

As David said, transfers are allowed because policy allows it.

APNIC distributes and manages Internet resources in the region following the address policies that are proposed and agreed by the community.  Prop-50: ‘IPv4 address transfers’ was first proposed in 2007, reached community consensus in 2009, and was implemented in 2010.

If you have a proposal to change APNIC address policy, you are welcome to submit a proposal to the Policy SIG for community discussion.  I can recommend the following resources if you wish to learn more about the policy process and how it works:

Policy development:  https://www.apnic.net/community/policy/process/

Guidelines for proposal authors:  https://www.apnic.net/community/policy/process/guidelines-for-proposal-authors/

APNIC Academy’s Policy Development Process Course: https://academy.apnic.net/en/course/policy-development-process-course

Thanks

Vivek

Hi Vivek,