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It is already a possibility in the RIPE region to do such transfers.
And?
It is really to cover a corner case where organisations are not able or interested in receiving the IP space in form of assignments or sub-allocations, but need them to be part of their own registry for full control of the space and only for a pre-set amount of time.
Solution is simple, if the organization is not interested in receiving the resources as assignments and sub-allocations then just buy it.
What is full control? creation of route-objects? or anything which can't be done by sending an email to helpdesk@apnic.net?
I do not believe that spammer would benefit from this policy as they would have to register with APNIC as members and provide all the needed paperwork such as company registration papers, ID/passports, billing address etc...
It will definitely support the spammers by all means. You temperorary transfer resource to Spammer, they do their thing and get black listed everywhere and then you get the resources back and ask everyone that we are the new owner of this resource so kindly remove all the listing. REPEAT.
They are much better off renting a /24 from the black market with no traces or documented changes ion the address block.
Yup, let them pay black market rates for black market business model.
And what will be the temporary transfer fees? same as permanent transfer fees? or free?
In order to resolve a corner case it will open up opertunities for spammers. I stronly oppose it.
Hi David ,Aftab,
Thank you for the reply.
(snip)
I do not believe that spammer would benefit from this policy as they would have to register with APNIC as members and provide all the needed paperwork such as company registration papers, ID/passports, billing address etc...
It will definitely support the spammers by all means. You temperorary transfer resource to Spammer, they do their thing and get black listed everywhere and then you get the resources back and ask everyone that we are the new owner of this resource so kindly remove all the listing. REPEAT.
agree. This proposal support the spammer and the LIR who support or earn income from the spammer.
I'm afraid that those spammer and LIR can transfer the address resources more freely and frequency if both prop-119 and prop-118 will be a consensus.
Satoru Tsurumaki
They are much better off renting a /24 from the black market with no traces or documented changes ion the address block.
Yup, let them pay black market rates for black market business model.
And what will be the temporary transfer fees? same as permanent transfer fees? or free?
In order to resolve a corner case it will open up opertunities for spammers. I stronly oppose it. -- Best Wishes,
Aftab A. Siddiqui
sig-policy: APNIC SIG on resource management policy
sig-policy mailing list sig-policy@lists.apnic.net https://mailman.apnic.net/mailman/listinfo/sig-policy
On 18 August 2017 at 08:22, Aftab Siddiqui aftab.siddiqui@gmail.com wrote:
It is already a possibility in the RIPE region to do such transfers.
And?
It is really to cover a corner case where organisations are not able or interested in receiving the IP space in form of assignments or sub-allocations, but need them to be part of their own registry for full control of the space and only for a pre-set amount of time.
Solution is simple, if the organization is not interested in receiving the resources as assignments and sub-allocations then just buy it.
What is full control? creation of route-objects? or anything which can't be done by sending an email to helpdesk@apnic.net?
If it is not registered to your LIR in your registry, you cannot send an email to helpdesk@apnic.net as it is not your space to control in APNIC DB in the first place, but the space from your LIR that has issued the space to you, your LIR decides how to register it and which maintainers will be on it, you are not in full control.
And ultimately for the ones using RPKI, it needs to be under their control to issue ROAs in MyAPNIC and not rely on any other parties for their own IP management.
I do not believe that spammer would benefit from this policy as they would have to register with APNIC as members and provide all the needed paperwork such as company registration papers, ID/passports, billing address etc...
It will definitely support the spammers by all means. You temperorary transfer resource to Spammer, they do their thing and get black listed everywhere and then you get the resources back and ask everyone that we are the new owner of this resource so kindly remove all the listing. REPEAT.
Following this logic, company name change and mergers should also be prevented in order to prevent washing off the space in that manner.
But more specifically to the temporary transfers, not sure how that scenario would work out in real life, transfer logs are public, it would be visible what happened, that is no different from current situation of issuing more specific inetnums, taking them back and going and telling..."I didn't know what they were going to use them for".
It really changes nothing at that level.
There would actually be more transparency to the outside world in the process, compare to the current merger and company name changes or DB delegation, so accountability and traceability would increase, this is not what spammers and spammers purveyor look for.
To get a temporary transfer they also would: A: need to be a member of APNIC B: need to provide documentation and leave behind a paper trail.
That makes the recipient of a temporary transfer much more accountable than one of an assignment or sub-allocation. It also links permanently the offering party to the recipient in the transfer log. Assignments and sub-allocations are eventually removed from the Database and traces of past cooperation forgotten.
They are much better off renting a /24 from the black market with no traces or documented changes ion the address block.
Yup, let them pay black market rates for black market business model.
Which they will continue to do, I really cannot see how this one would open the door to the spammers as compared to current uncontrolled and unverified system were assignments and sub-allocations can be made without APNIC's involvement nor receiving any form of documentation in regards to who the recipient is.
And what will be the temporary transfer fees? same as permanent transfer fees? or free?
To be considered as a transfer in procedure, only difference is that they will be returned to the original LIR after an agreed upon amount of time.
In order to resolve a corner case it will open up opertunities for spammers. I stronly oppose it. -- Best Wishes,
Aftab A. Siddiqui
David Hilario
IP Manager
Larus Cloud Service Limited
p: +852 29888918 m: +359 89 764 1784 f: +852 29888068 a: Flat B5, 11/F, TML Tower, No.3 Hoi Shing Road, Tsuen Wan, HKSAR w: laruscloudservice.net e: d.hilario@laruscloudservice.net
Hi Aftab:
I believe your understanding of spammer operation is not at all based on reality.
Spammers merely need one to two-month space, and they disappear soon. Thus, there is no point for them to undergo this temporary transfer in order to sort out all the APNIC membership with a huge amount of paper work when they can simply pay (or hijack) for an announcement and have their spam job done.
Have you ever experienced during your operation history: a spammer come to you and say, 'hey we want to have a proper RIR registration in our name. For this we are so scared that you will take away space from us while we are spamming?'
Could you answer that directly?
The policy which aims to bring more accurate whois database for today's leasing market of space actually forces leaser to register their leaser's information in the whois database by offering protection of leasee and leaser's interest and by agreeing to set an amount time of ownership. One of the biggest risks faced by leasee is the probability of the leaser cancelling assignment or sub-allocation. This will lead to operation problem if they are not ready for network renumbering. In this sense, the protection can be an incentive for leasees to register their information properly.
On 18 August 2017 at 07:22, Aftab Siddiqui aftab.siddiqui@gmail.com wrote:
It is already a possibility in the RIPE region to do such transfers.
And?
It is really to cover a corner case where organisations are not able or interested in receiving the IP space in form of assignments or sub-allocations, but need them to be part of their own registry for full control of the space and only for a pre-set amount of time.
Solution is simple, if the organization is not interested in receiving the resources as assignments and sub-allocations then just buy it.
What is full control? creation of route-objects? or anything which can't be done by sending an email to helpdesk@apnic.net?
I do not believe that spammer would benefit from this policy as they would have to register with APNIC as members and provide all the needed paperwork such as company registration papers, ID/passports, billing address etc...
It will definitely support the spammers by all means. You temperorary transfer resource to Spammer, they do their thing and get black listed everywhere and then you get the resources back and ask everyone that we are the new owner of this resource so kindly remove all the listing. REPEAT.
They are much better off renting a /24 from the black market with no traces or documented changes ion the address block.
Yup, let them pay black market rates for black market business model.
And what will be the temporary transfer fees? same as permanent transfer fees? or free?
In order to resolve a corner case it will open up opertunities for spammers. I stronly oppose it. -- Best Wishes,
Aftab A. Siddiqui
sig-policy: APNIC SIG on resource management policy
sig-policy mailing list sig-policy@lists.apnic.net https://mailman.apnic.net/mailman/listinfo/sig-policy
Hi Aftab:
I believe your understanding of spammer operation is not at all based on reality.
Actually, you are right. I have no experience of running or facilitating any spammer operations.
Spammers merely need one to two-month space, and they disappear soon. Thus, there is no point for them to undergo this temporary transfer in order to sort out all the APNIC membership with a huge amount of paper work when they can simply pay (or hijack) for an announcement and have their spam job done.
I'm not sure what sort of huge paper work is required?
Have you ever experienced during your operation history: a spammer come to you and say, 'hey we want to have a proper RIR registration in our name. For this we are so scared that you will take away space from us while we are spamming?'
Could you answer that directly?
nah, I'll pass.
The policy which aims to bring more accurate whois database
This advantage is not mentioned in the policy.
for today's leasing market of space actually forces leaser to register their leaser's information in the whois database by offering protection of leasee and leaser's interest and by agreeing to set an amount time of ownership. One of the biggest risks faced by leasee is the probability of the leaser cancelling assignment or sub-allocation. This will lead to operation problem if they are not ready for network renumbering. In this sense, the protection can be an incentive for leasees to register their information properly.
Your point is valid in terms of leasing but there is a fundamental problem in my opinion.
As per APNIC Internet Number Resource Policy https://www.apnic.net/community/policy/resources:
4.0. Resource License
It is contrary to the goals of this document and is not in the interests of the Internet community as a whole, for Internet number resources to be considered freehold property.
Neither delegation nor registration confers ownership of resources. Organizations that use them are considered "custodians" rather than "owners" of the resource, and are not entitled to sell or otherwise transfer that resource to other parties outside the provisions in this document.
Internet resources are regarded as public resources that should only be distributed according to demonstrated need. The policies in this document are based upon the understanding that globally-unique unicast address space is licensed for use rather than owned. ======
And as per the Member's Obligation in membership agreement https://www.apnic.net/about-apnic/corporate-documents/documents/membership/membership-agreement/ 3.2 (d) The Member must comply with this agreement and all APNIC Documents.
So IMO (though I'm not a lawyer but I watch Suits if that counts), if an APNIC member is currently leasing IP addresses then they are in breach of the membership agreement.
Probably APNIC Secretariat can clarify that further.
On 18 August 2017 at 07:22, Aftab Siddiqui aftab.siddiqui@gmail.com wrote:
It is already a possibility in the RIPE region to do such transfers.
And?
It is really to cover a corner case where organisations are not able or interested in receiving the IP space in form of assignments or sub-allocations, but need them to be part of their own registry for full control of the space and only for a pre-set amount of time.
Solution is simple, if the organization is not interested in receiving the resources as assignments and sub-allocations then just buy it.
What is full control? creation of route-objects? or anything which can't be done by sending an email to helpdesk@apnic.net?
I do not believe that spammer would benefit from this policy as they would have to register with APNIC as members and provide all the needed paperwork such as company registration papers, ID/passports, billing address etc...
It will definitely support the spammers by all means. You temperorary transfer resource to Spammer, they do their thing and get black listed everywhere and then you get the resources back and ask everyone that we are the new owner of this resource so kindly remove all the listing. REPEAT.
They are much better off renting a /24 from the black market with no traces or documented changes ion the address block.
Yup, let them pay black market rates for black market business model.
And what will be the temporary transfer fees? same as permanent transfer fees? or free?
In order to resolve a corner case it will open up opertunities for spammers. I stronly oppose it. -- Best Wishes,
Aftab A. Siddiqui
sig-policy: APNIC SIG on resource management policy
sig-policy mailing list sig-policy@lists.apnic.net https://mailman.apnic.net/mailman/listinfo/sig-policy
--
Kind regards. Lu
--
Best Wishes,
Aftab A. Siddiqui
Hi
On Fri, Aug 18, 2017 at 16:30 Aftab Siddiqui aftab.siddiqui@gmail.com wrote:
Hi Aftab:
I believe your understanding of spammer operation is not at all based on reality.
Actually, you are right. I have no experience of running or facilitating any spammer operations.
so on what basis you found your argument such policy will facilitating spammer operations vaild?
Spammers merely need one to two-month space, and they disappear soon. Thus, there is no point for them to undergo this temporary transfer in order to sort out all the APNIC membership with a huge amount of paper work when they can simply pay (or hijack) for an announcement and have their spam job done.
I'm not sure what sort of huge paper work is required?
Check APNIC member registration requirement.
Have you ever experienced during your operation history: a spammer come to you and say, 'hey we want to have a proper RIR registration in our name. For this we are so scared that you will take away space from us while we are spamming?'
Could you answer that directly?
nah, I'll pass.
Anyone with real operational experience will have encountered spammer request, or a server being hacked by spammer or lease by spammer with fake account, it surprise me you wholely base your argument on potential increasing spam acitivity while have no real experience in anti spam operations.
The policy which aims to bring more accurate whois database
This advantage is not mentioned in the policy.
The results is obvious.
for today's leasing market of space actually forces leaser to register their leaser's information in the whois database by offering protection of leasee and leaser's interest and by agreeing to set an amount time of ownership. One of the biggest risks faced by leasee is the probability of the leaser cancelling assignment or sub-allocation. This will lead to operation problem if they are not ready for network renumbering. In this sense, the protection can be an incentive for leasees to register their information properly.
Your point is valid in terms of leasing but there is a fundamental problem in my opinion.
As per APNIC Internet Number Resource Policy https://www.apnic.net/community/policy/resources:
4.0. Resource License
It is contrary to the goals of this document and is not in the interests of the Internet community as a whole, for Internet number resources to be considered freehold property.
Neither delegation nor registration confers ownership of resources. Organizations that use them are considered "custodians" rather than "owners" of the resource, and are not entitled to sell or otherwise transfer that resource to other parties outside the provisions in this document.
Internet resources are regarded as public resources that should only be distributed according to demonstrated need. The policies in this document are based upon the understanding that globally-unique unicast address space is licensed for use rather than owned. ======
And as per the Member's Obligation in membership agreement https://www.apnic.net/about-apnic/corporate-documents/documents/membership/membership-agreement/ 3.2 (d) The Member must comply with this agreement and all APNIC Documents.
So IMO (though I'm not a lawyer but I watch Suits if that counts), if an APNIC member is currently leasing IP addresses then they are in breach of the membership agreement.
Probably APNIC Secretariat can clarify that further.
Therefore(in the assumption your reading of the document is correct) the membership agreement need to be updated, our goal here is to maintain an accurate registry, and policy are what sets rules for using IPs, not contract, lawyers have no rights in the bottom up process to tell operators how to use their space.
On 18 August 2017 at 07:22, Aftab Siddiqui aftab.siddiqui@gmail.com wrote:
It is already a possibility in the RIPE region to do such transfers.
And?
It is really to cover a corner case where organisations are not able or interested in receiving the IP space in form of assignments or sub-allocations, but need them to be part of their own registry for full control of the space and only for a pre-set amount of time.
Solution is simple, if the organization is not interested in receiving the resources as assignments and sub-allocations then just buy it.
What is full control? creation of route-objects? or anything which can't be done by sending an email to helpdesk@apnic.net?
I do not believe that spammer would benefit from this policy as they would have to register with APNIC as members and provide all the needed paperwork such as company registration papers, ID/passports, billing address etc...
It will definitely support the spammers by all means. You temperorary transfer resource to Spammer, they do their thing and get black listed everywhere and then you get the resources back and ask everyone that we are the new owner of this resource so kindly remove all the listing. REPEAT.
They are much better off renting a /24 from the black market with no traces or documented changes ion the address block.
Yup, let them pay black market rates for black market business model.
And what will be the temporary transfer fees? same as permanent transfer fees? or free?
In order to resolve a corner case it will open up opertunities for spammers. I stronly oppose it. -- Best Wishes,
Aftab A. Siddiqui
sig-policy: APNIC SIG on resource management policy
sig-policy mailing list sig-policy@lists.apnic.net https://mailman.apnic.net/mailman/listinfo/sig-policy
--
Kind regards. Lu
--
Best Wishes,
Aftab A. Siddiqui
On Aug 18, 2017, at 2:38 AM, Lu Heng h.lu@anytimechinese.com wrote:
Hi Aftab:
I believe your understanding of spammer operation is not at all based on reality.
Aftab’s description of spammer operations is very much based in reality.
Spammers merely need one to two-month space, and they disappear soon. Thus, there is no point for them to undergo this temporary transfer in order to sort out all the APNIC membership with a huge amount of paper work when they can simply pay (or hijack) for an announcement and have their spam job done.
You’d be surprised.
Have you ever experienced during your operation history: a spammer come to you and say, 'hey we want to have a proper RIR registration in our name. For this we are so scared that you will take away space from us while we are spamming?’
Usually they aim for RIR registration in the name of one of their shell companies, but I don’t see any reason that this temporary transfer policy wouldn’t also be used that way.
Could you answer that directly?
The policy which aims to bring more accurate whois database for today's leasing market of space actually forces leaser to register their leaser's information in the whois database by offering protection of leasee and leaser's interest and by agreeing to set an amount time of ownership. One of the biggest risks faced by leasee is the probability of the leaser cancelling assignment or sub-allocation. This will lead to operation problem if they are not ready for network renumbering. In this sense, the protection can be an incentive for leasees to register their information properly.
In my observation, the primary users of today’s “leasing market” of IPv4 address space are, in fact, snowshoe spammers, so you’re kind of making Aftab’s case here.
Owen
On 18 August 2017 at 07:22, Aftab Siddiqui <aftab.siddiqui@gmail.com mailto:aftab.siddiqui@gmail.com> wrote:
It is already a possibility in the RIPE region to do such transfers.
And?
It is really to cover a corner case where organisations are not able or interested in receiving the IP space in form of assignments or sub-allocations, but need them to be part of their own registry for full control of the space and only for a pre-set amount of time.
Solution is simple, if the organization is not interested in receiving the resources as assignments and sub-allocations then just buy it.
What is full control? creation of route-objects? or anything which can't be done by sending an email to helpdesk@apnic.net mailto:helpdesk@apnic.net?
I do not believe that spammer would benefit from this policy as they would have to register with APNIC as members and provide all the needed paperwork such as company registration papers, ID/passports, billing address etc...
It will definitely support the spammers by all means. You temperorary transfer resource to Spammer, they do their thing and get black listed everywhere and then you get the resources back and ask everyone that we are the new owner of this resource so kindly remove all the listing. REPEAT.
They are much better off renting a /24 from the black market with no traces or documented changes ion the address block.
Yup, let them pay black market rates for black market business model.
And what will be the temporary transfer fees? same as permanent transfer fees? or free?
In order to resolve a corner case it will open up opertunities for spammers. I stronly oppose it.
Best Wishes,
Aftab A. Siddiqui
sig-policy: APNIC SIG on resource management policy *
sig-policy mailing list sig-policy@lists.apnic.net mailto:sig-policy@lists.apnic.net https://mailman.apnic.net/mailman/listinfo/sig-policy https://mailman.apnic.net/mailman/listinfo/sig-policy
--
Kind regards. Lu
sig-policy: APNIC SIG on resource management policy *
sig-policy mailing list sig-policy@lists.apnic.net https://mailman.apnic.net/mailman/listinfo/sig-policy
Hi,
On 12 September 2017 at 20:04, Owen DeLong owen@delong.com wrote:
On Aug 18, 2017, at 2:38 AM, Lu Heng h.lu@anytimechinese.com wrote:
Hi Aftab:
I believe your understanding of spammer operation is not at all based on reality.
Aftab’s description of spammer operations is very much based in reality.
Spammers merely need one to two-month space, and they disappear soon. Thus, there is no point for them to undergo this temporary transfer in order to sort out all the APNIC membership with a huge amount of paper work when they can simply pay (or hijack) for an announcement and have their spam job done.
You’d be surprised.
Have you ever experienced during your operation history: a spammer come to you and say, 'hey we want to have a proper RIR registration in our name. For this we are so scared that you will take away space from us while we are spamming?’
Usually they aim for RIR registration in the name of one of their shell companies, but I don’t see any reason that this temporary transfer policy wouldn’t also be used that way.
Could you answer that directly?
The policy which aims to bring more accurate whois database for today's leasing market of space actually forces leaser to register their leaser's information in the whois database by offering protection of leasee and leaser's interest and by agreeing to set an amount time of ownership. One of the biggest risks faced by leasee is the probability of the leaser cancelling assignment or sub-allocation. This will lead to operation problem if they are not ready for network renumbering. In this sense, the protection can be an incentive for leasees to register their information properly.
In my observation, the primary users of today’s “leasing market” of IPv4 address space are, in fact, snowshoe spammers, so you’re kind of making Aftab’s case here.
Yes, they need short time "lease" which they get through PA registration, one quick SWIP and they have the network they need for the coming days/weeks/months, they do not intended to lease on basis of years or even quarterly so semi annual basis, they need short terms, they also do not need large amounts a /24 or slightly more is enough, they need them often, new and clean, that would not be easier by having a temporary transfer policy in place.
For what its worth, the cheapest and fastest manner for anyone is actually opening memberships at APNIC or RIPE, you get guaranteed fresh blocks. Only thing one needs to do is register a new company, infrastructure to justify the IPs with APNIC is already there anyways if you are in that business. So if we are talking about spammers the new LIR process is where they have the most friendly interface to deal with, rather then dealing with established LIRs that do not want to see their address space blacklisted.
I unfortunately have no clue how this can be reduced through policy, but this is a reality. As long as we have space reserved for new entrants, we will offer a fresh IP service to networks in need of that alonside all the others who have a genuine need.
It was mentioned today during prep-116, a membership is cheaper than a transfer in the first place, small amount of space is just cheaper by opening new memberships.
Changing any process in the other parts of the IPV4 policy does not render the work of spammer easier when it already cannot be easier than that to procure fresh new IPs on demand via the RIR directly.
Regards, David
Owen
On 18 August 2017 at 07:22, Aftab Siddiqui aftab.siddiqui@gmail.com wrote:
It is already a possibility in the RIPE region to do such transfers.
And?
It is really to cover a corner case where organisations are not able or interested in receiving the IP space in form of assignments or sub-allocations, but need them to be part of their own registry for full control of the space and only for a pre-set amount of time.
Solution is simple, if the organization is not interested in receiving the resources as assignments and sub-allocations then just buy it.
What is full control? creation of route-objects? or anything which can't be done by sending an email to helpdesk@apnic.net?
I do not believe that spammer would benefit from this policy as they would have to register with APNIC as members and provide all the needed paperwork such as company registration papers, ID/passports, billing address etc...
It will definitely support the spammers by all means. You temperorary transfer resource to Spammer, they do their thing and get black listed everywhere and then you get the resources back and ask everyone that we are the new owner of this resource so kindly remove all the listing. REPEAT.
They are much better off renting a /24 from the black market with no traces or documented changes ion the address block.
Yup, let them pay black market rates for black market business model.
And what will be the temporary transfer fees? same as permanent transfer fees? or free?
In order to resolve a corner case it will open up opertunities for spammers. I stronly oppose it. -- Best Wishes,
Aftab A. Siddiqui
sig-policy: APNIC SIG on resource management policy
sig-policy mailing list sig-policy@lists.apnic.net https://mailman.apnic.net/mailman/listinfo/sig-policy
--
Kind regards. Lu
sig-policy: APNIC SIG on resource management policy
sig-policy mailing list sig-policy@lists.apnic.net https://mailman.apnic.net/mailman/listinfo/sig-policy
sig-policy: APNIC SIG on resource management policy
sig-policy mailing list sig-policy@lists.apnic.net https://mailman.apnic.net/mailman/listinfo/sig-policy
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