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Dear SIG members
The proposal "prop-119: Temporary transfers" was sent to the Policy SIG Mailing list in May 2017.
It will be presented at the Open Policy Meeting at APNIC 44 which will be held in Taichung, Taiwan on Wednesday and Thursday, 14 & 15 September 2017.
Information about the proposal is available from:
http://www.apnic.net/policy/proposals/prop-119
You are encouraged to express your views on the proposal:
- Do you support or oppose the proposal? - Do you see any disadvantages in this proposal? - Is there anything in the proposal that is not clear? - What changes could be made to this proposal to make it more effective?
Please find the text of the proposal below.
Kind Regards,
Sumon, Ching-Heng, Bertrand APNIC Policy SIG Chairs
------------------------------------------------------------------------
prop-119-v001: Temporary transfers
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Proposer: David Hilario d.hilario@laruscloudservice.net
1. Problem statement ------------------------------------------------------------------------
It is currently not possible for an organisation to receive a temporary transfer under the current policy framework. Some organisations do not want to have address space registered as assignments or sub-allocations, but would rather have the address space registered as "ALLOCATED PA".
2. Objective of policy change ------------------------------------------------------------------------
Create a possibility for temporary transfers that would allow organisations to have resources directly registered under them while they are the custodians of these resources on the Internet. While also guaranteeing that the offering party will under the APNIC policy be able to recover the resources once the “lease” time has expired unless specifically renewed.
3. Situation in other regions ------------------------------------------------------------------------
RIPE region has a concept of temporary transfers in their policies. This concept is not found in the other RIRs for the moment.
4. Proposed policy solution ------------------------------------------------------------------------
Adding to section "8.2.1. Conditions on the space to be transferred" the following paragraphs: It must be specified if the transfer is a permanent or temporary transfer.
A temporary transfer must have an end date, upon the end date the resources will be transferred back to the same origin account or its successor in the event of merger and acquisitions, unless the transfer is specifically prolonged and confirmed by both parties.
If the source account does no longer exist and has no successor, the space will then be returned to the origin RIR for the space. Temporary transfers cannot be further transferred.
5. Advantages / Disadvantages ------------------------------------------------------------------------
Advantages: Gives a greater flexibility in how LIRs manage and distribute their free pool. Enables organisation to receive address space in the way they intend.
Disadvantages: These transfers would be treated and appear as regular transfers, only APNIC the offering and receiving party will be aware of their temporary nature.
Organisations receiving such space, if they further assign it, must make be ready to renumber/revoke space from their customers and services then the lease expires, this is no different than a sub-allocation and implies the same limitations.
6. Impact on resource holders ------------------------------------------------------------------------ none
7. References -------------
_______________________________________________ Sig-policy-chair mailing list Sig-policy-chair@apnic.net https://mailman.apnic.net/mailman/listinfo/sig-policy-chair
Attachments:
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I oppose this proposal.
I would like to know who and why need the "temporary" address. I could not imagine the use case of this proposal except for the spammer who get the temporary address which set very short period, sent huge number of SPAM, return the address and run away. After that, the source organization might be "laundering" the address from SPAM DB, then lease this address to another spammers.
I think we should oppose the proposal which might support the spammer.
regards,
Satoru Tsurumaki
2017-08-09 15:16 GMT+09:00 chku chku@twnic.net.tw:
Dear SIG members
The proposal "prop-119: Temporary transfers" was sent to the Policy SIG Mailing list in May 2017.
It will be presented at the Open Policy Meeting at APNIC 44 which will be held in Taichung, Taiwan on Wednesday and Thursday, 14 & 15 September 2017.
Information about the proposal is available from:
http://www.apnic.net/policy/proposals/prop-119You are encouraged to express your views on the proposal:
- Do you support or oppose the proposal?
- Do you see any disadvantages in this proposal?
- Is there anything in the proposal that is not clear?
- What changes could be made to this proposal to make it more effective?
Please find the text of the proposal below.
Kind Regards,
Sumon, Ching-Heng, Bertrand APNIC Policy SIG Chairs
prop-119-v001: Temporary transfers
Proposer: David Hilario d.hilario@laruscloudservice.net
- Problem statement
It is currently not possible for an organisation to receive a temporary transfer under the current policy framework. Some organisations do not want to have address space registered as assignments or sub-allocations, but would rather have the address space registered as "ALLOCATED PA".
- Objective of policy change
Create a possibility for temporary transfers that would allow organisations to have resources directly registered under them while they are the custodians of these resources on the Internet. While also guaranteeing that the offering party will under the APNIC policy be able to recover the resources once the “lease” time has expired unless specifically renewed.
- Situation in other regions
RIPE region has a concept of temporary transfers in their policies. This concept is not found in the other RIRs for the moment.
- Proposed policy solution
Adding to section "8.2.1. Conditions on the space to be transferred" the following paragraphs: It must be specified if the transfer is a permanent or temporary transfer.
A temporary transfer must have an end date, upon the end date the resources will be transferred back to the same origin account or its successor in the event of merger and acquisitions, unless the transfer is specifically prolonged and confirmed by both parties.
If the source account does no longer exist and has no successor, the space will then be returned to the origin RIR for the space. Temporary transfers cannot be further transferred.
- Advantages / Disadvantages
Advantages: Gives a greater flexibility in how LIRs manage and distribute their free pool. Enables organisation to receive address space in the way they intend.
Disadvantages: These transfers would be treated and appear as regular transfers, only APNIC the offering and receiving party will be aware of their temporary nature.
Organisations receiving such space, if they further assign it, must make be ready to renumber/revoke space from their customers and services then the lease expires, this is no different than a sub-allocation and implies the same limitations.
- Impact on resource holders
none
- References
Sig-policy-chair mailing list Sig-policy-chair@apnic.net https://mailman.apnic.net/mailman/listinfo/sig-policy-chair
sig-policy: APNIC SIG on resource management policy *
sig-policy mailing list sig-policy@lists.apnic.net https://mailman.apnic.net/mailman/listinfo/sig-policy
Hi Satoru,
Thank you for sharing those views.
On 17 August 2017 at 13:48, Satoru Tsurumaki satoru.tsurumaki@g.softbank.co.jp wrote:
I oppose this proposal.
I would like to know who and why need the "temporary" address.
It actually came up a few time from larger networks who tend to want that, it is a form of long term leasing for them, they want the resources into their registry out of convenience but also due to internal procedures, they for example only want to commit for a 5 year period while preparing their IPv6 and then return the space.
The do not want to receive a sub-allocation or assignment, as it needs to be part of their LIR/registry for them to be able to count it into the network inventory and use the address.
Some organisation have strict policies against use of external IP space.
I could not imagine the use case of this proposal except for the spammer who get the temporary address which set very short period, sent huge number of SPAM, return the address and run away.
I do not believe that it would not benefit spammers quite the contrary, spammers tend to want to remain as anonymous as possible, there they would need to be reviewed and approved by APNIC, meaning that all legal documents would had been shared, it would leave tracks, which is not something spammers like to leave behind.
After that, the source organization might be "laundering" the address from SPAM DB, then lease this address to another spammers.
As oppose to when an LIR issues assignment and/or sub-allocations? I really do not see how this would benefit spammers and their suppliers more than how it currently is today?
I would really not see a spammer going through those length of paperwork and leaving so much traceable documents behind.
I think we should oppose the proposal which might support the spammer.
regards,
Satoru Tsurumaki
2017-08-09 15:16 GMT+09:00 chku chku@twnic.net.tw:
Dear SIG members
The proposal "prop-119: Temporary transfers" was sent to the Policy SIG Mailing list in May 2017.
It will be presented at the Open Policy Meeting at APNIC 44 which will be held in Taichung, Taiwan on Wednesday and Thursday, 14 & 15 September 2017.
Information about the proposal is available from:
http://www.apnic.net/policy/proposals/prop-119You are encouraged to express your views on the proposal:
- Do you support or oppose the proposal?
- Do you see any disadvantages in this proposal?
- Is there anything in the proposal that is not clear?
- What changes could be made to this proposal to make it more effective?
Please find the text of the proposal below.
Kind Regards,
Sumon, Ching-Heng, Bertrand APNIC Policy SIG Chairs
prop-119-v001: Temporary transfers
Proposer: David Hilario d.hilario@laruscloudservice.net
- Problem statement
It is currently not possible for an organisation to receive a temporary transfer under the current policy framework. Some organisations do not want to have address space registered as assignments or sub-allocations, but would rather have the address space registered as "ALLOCATED PA".
- Objective of policy change
Create a possibility for temporary transfers that would allow organisations to have resources directly registered under them while they are the custodians of these resources on the Internet. While also guaranteeing that the offering party will under the APNIC policy be able to recover the resources once the “lease” time has expired unless specifically renewed.
- Situation in other regions
RIPE region has a concept of temporary transfers in their policies. This concept is not found in the other RIRs for the moment.
- Proposed policy solution
Adding to section "8.2.1. Conditions on the space to be transferred" the following paragraphs: It must be specified if the transfer is a permanent or temporary transfer.
A temporary transfer must have an end date, upon the end date the resources will be transferred back to the same origin account or its successor in the event of merger and acquisitions, unless the transfer is specifically prolonged and confirmed by both parties.
If the source account does no longer exist and has no successor, the space will then be returned to the origin RIR for the space. Temporary transfers cannot be further transferred.
- Advantages / Disadvantages
Advantages: Gives a greater flexibility in how LIRs manage and distribute their free pool. Enables organisation to receive address space in the way they intend.
Disadvantages: These transfers would be treated and appear as regular transfers, only APNIC the offering and receiving party will be aware of their temporary nature.
Organisations receiving such space, if they further assign it, must make be ready to renumber/revoke space from their customers and services then the lease expires, this is no different than a sub-allocation and implies the same limitations.
- Impact on resource holders
none
- References
Sig-policy-chair mailing list Sig-policy-chair@apnic.net https://mailman.apnic.net/mailman/listinfo/sig-policy-chair
sig-policy: APNIC SIG on resource management policy *
sig-policy mailing list sig-policy@lists.apnic.net https://mailman.apnic.net/mailman/listinfo/sig-policy
sig-policy: APNIC SIG on resource management policy *
sig-policy mailing list sig-policy@lists.apnic.net https://mailman.apnic.net/mailman/listinfo/sig-policy
David Hilario
IP Manager
Larus Cloud Service Limited
p: +852 29888918 m: +359 89 764 1784 f: +852 29888068 a: Flat B5, 11/F, TML Tower, No.3 Hoi Shing Road, Tsuen Wan, HKSAR w: laruscloudservice.net e: d.hilario@laruscloudservice.net
I support this proposition.
As a recipient of a temporary lease from another APNIC member and used for 18 months to facilitate the transition of a POP, this facility would have been advantageous.
In a IPv4 exhausted world which is not transitioning to IPv6 fast enough to avoid temporary transfers, I suspect that this policy creates a framework where address space may be able to be correctly WHOIS'ed during this type of event.
I acknowledge Satoru's view below, however suspect this would be in the minority and prop-119 would make it easier to deal with offenders as they would be APNIC members with clear contact details and billing addresses.
With Regards,
Richard
-----Original Message----- From: sig-policy-bounces@lists.apnic.net [mailto:sig-policy- bounces@lists.apnic.net] On Behalf Of Satoru Tsurumaki Sent: Thursday, 17 August 2017 8:48 PM To: sig-policy Subject: Re: [sig-policy] prop-119: Temporary transfers, to be discussed at APNIC 44 Polic y SIG
I oppose this proposal.
I would like to know who and why need the "temporary" address. I could not imagine the use case of this proposal except for the spammer who get the temporary address which set very short period, sent huge number of SPAM, return the address and run away. After that, the source organization might be "laundering" the address from SPAM DB, then lease this address to another spammers.
I think we should oppose the proposal which might support the spammer.
regards,
Satoru Tsurumaki
2017-08-09 15:16 GMT+09:00 chku chku@twnic.net.tw:
Dear SIG members
The proposal "prop-119: Temporary transfers" was sent to the Policy SIG Mailing list in May 2017.
It will be presented at the Open Policy Meeting at APNIC 44 which will be held in Taichung, Taiwan on Wednesday and Thursday, 14 & 15 September 2017.
Information about the proposal is available from:
http://www.apnic.net/policy/proposals/prop-119You are encouraged to express your views on the proposal:
- Do you support or oppose the proposal?
- Do you see any disadvantages in this proposal?
- Is there anything in the proposal that is not clear?
- What changes could be made to this proposal to make it more effective?
Please find the text of the proposal below.
Kind Regards,
Sumon, Ching-Heng, Bertrand APNIC Policy SIG Chairs
--
prop-119-v001: Temporary transfers
--
Proposer: David Hilario d.hilario@laruscloudservice.net
- Problem statement
--
It is currently not possible for an organisation to receive a temporary transfer under the current policy framework. Some organisations do not want to have address space registered as assignments or sub-allocations, but would rather have the address space
registered as "ALLOCATED PA".
- Objective of policy change
--
Create a possibility for temporary transfers that would allow organisations to have resources directly registered under them while they are the custodians of these resources on the Internet. While also guaranteeing that the offering party will under the APNIC policy be able to recover the resources once the “lease” time has expired unless specifically renewed.
- Situation in other regions
--
RIPE region has a concept of temporary transfers in their policies. This concept is not found in the other RIRs for the moment.
- Proposed policy solution
--
Adding to section "8.2.1. Conditions on the space to be transferred" the following paragraphs: It must be specified if the transfer is a permanent or temporary transfer.
A temporary transfer must have an end date, upon the end date the resources will be transferred back to the same origin account or its successor in the event of merger and acquisitions, unless the transfer is specifically prolonged and confirmed by both parties.
If the source account does no longer exist and has no successor, the space will then be returned to the origin RIR for the space. Temporary transfers cannot be further transferred.
- Advantages / Disadvantages
--
Advantages: Gives a greater flexibility in how LIRs manage and distribute their free pool. Enables organisation to receive address space in the way they intend.
Disadvantages: These transfers would be treated and appear as regular transfers, only APNIC the offering and receiving party will be aware of their temporary nature.
Organisations receiving such space, if they further assign it, must make be ready to renumber/revoke space from their customers and services then the lease expires, this is no different than a sub-allocation and implies the same limitations.
- Impact on resource holders
-- none
- References
Sig-policy-chair mailing list Sig-policy-chair@apnic.net https://mailman.apnic.net/mailman/listinfo/sig-policy-chair
sig-policy: APNIC SIG on resource management policy *
sig-policy mailing list sig-policy@lists.apnic.net https://mailman.apnic.net/mailman/listinfo/sig-policy
sig-policy: APNIC SIG on resource management policy *
sig-policy mailing list sig-policy@lists.apnic.net https://mailman.apnic.net/mailman/listinfo/sig-policy
- Do you support or oppose the proposal?
Mild support.
- Do you see any disadvantages in this proposal?
No.
- Is there anything in the proposal that is not clear?
No.
- What changes could be made to this proposal to make it more effective?
An explicit requirement that the receiving party should be a current APNIC member
Overall, I am not clear on how useful or often this will be, but I see no disadvantages. This will help improve the Whois database, and document what is currently been done off-books. It improves the paperwork.
Dear Colleagues,
Satoru Tsurumaki, with Policy Working Group hat.
I would like to share key feedback in our community for prop-119, based on a meeting we organised on 5th Sep to discuss these proposals.
Many comments against this proposal were expressed. On the other hand, some expressed support for temporary transfer as a measure to increase accuracy in database.
Concerns/Opposing comments: * Cannot understand the need of leasing, nor use of prefixes where leasing is appropriate. Leasing of address space could encourage prefixes to be used for abuse. (As it accommodates change of address range if black listed)
* It will be costly to the APNIC region to adopt complex scheme of leasing.
* Leasing should not be allowed to a third party where lease source do not provide connectivity, to avoid fragmentation. Leasing should be only within the scope where LIRs can take responsibility.
Supportive comments/Suggestions: * It is better to allow temporary transfers and reflect the correct user of an address prefix, than a situation where registry database can no longer point to correct user of a prefix * Period of lease should be specified, such as for two years * A suggestion to evaluate purpose of the address usage when approving its request
Best Regards,
Satoru Tsurumaki Policy Working Group Japan Open Policy Forum
2017-08-09 15:16 GMT+09:00 chku chku@twnic.net.tw:
Dear SIG members
The proposal "prop-119: Temporary transfers" was sent to the Policy SIG Mailing list in May 2017.
It will be presented at the Open Policy Meeting at APNIC 44 which will be held in Taichung, Taiwan on Wednesday and Thursday, 14 & 15 September 2017.
Information about the proposal is available from:
http://www.apnic.net/policy/proposals/prop-119You are encouraged to express your views on the proposal:
- Do you support or oppose the proposal?
- Do you see any disadvantages in this proposal?
- Is there anything in the proposal that is not clear?
- What changes could be made to this proposal to make it more effective?
Please find the text of the proposal below.
Kind Regards,
Sumon, Ching-Heng, Bertrand APNIC Policy SIG Chairs
prop-119-v001: Temporary transfers
Proposer: David Hilario d.hilario@laruscloudservice.net
- Problem statement
It is currently not possible for an organisation to receive a temporary transfer under the current policy framework. Some organisations do not want to have address space registered as assignments or sub-allocations, but would rather have the address space registered as "ALLOCATED PA".
- Objective of policy change
Create a possibility for temporary transfers that would allow organisations to have resources directly registered under them while they are the custodians of these resources on the Internet. While also guaranteeing that the offering party will under the APNIC policy be able to recover the resources once the “lease” time has expired unless specifically renewed.
- Situation in other regions
RIPE region has a concept of temporary transfers in their policies. This concept is not found in the other RIRs for the moment.
- Proposed policy solution
Adding to section "8.2.1. Conditions on the space to be transferred" the following paragraphs: It must be specified if the transfer is a permanent or temporary transfer.
A temporary transfer must have an end date, upon the end date the resources will be transferred back to the same origin account or its successor in the event of merger and acquisitions, unless the transfer is specifically prolonged and confirmed by both parties.
If the source account does no longer exist and has no successor, the space will then be returned to the origin RIR for the space. Temporary transfers cannot be further transferred.
- Advantages / Disadvantages
Advantages: Gives a greater flexibility in how LIRs manage and distribute their free pool. Enables organisation to receive address space in the way they intend.
Disadvantages: These transfers would be treated and appear as regular transfers, only APNIC the offering and receiving party will be aware of their temporary nature.
Organisations receiving such space, if they further assign it, must make be ready to renumber/revoke space from their customers and services then the lease expires, this is no different than a sub-allocation and implies the same limitations.
- Impact on resource holders
none
- References
Sig-policy-chair mailing list Sig-policy-chair@apnic.net https://mailman.apnic.net/mailman/listinfo/sig-policy-chair
sig-policy: APNIC SIG on resource management policy *
sig-policy mailing list sig-policy@lists.apnic.net https://mailman.apnic.net/mailman/listinfo/sig-policy
Dear Satoru,
Thank you for conveying the feedback here.
On 8 September 2017 at 09:32, Satoru Tsurumaki satoru.tsurumaki@g.softbank.co.jp wrote:
Dear Colleagues,
Satoru Tsurumaki, with Policy Working Group hat.
I would like to share key feedback in our community for prop-119, based on a meeting we organised on 5th Sep to discuss these proposals.
Many comments against this proposal were expressed. On the other hand, some expressed support for temporary transfer as a measure to increase accuracy in database.
Concerns/Opposing comments:
- Cannot understand the need of leasing, nor use of prefixes where
leasing is appropriate. Leasing of address space could encourage prefixes to be used for abuse. (As it accommodates change of address range if black listed)
The space will come from one LIR and returned to the same LIR. It really isn't the offering LIRs interest to have their space blacklisted. This is not different than when an LIR issues an IP delegation such as an Assignment of sub-allocation in the APNIC Database, just the lease is a bit more "formal: in that it is shown as a transfer of authority in the Database.
- It will be costly to the APNIC region to adopt complex scheme of leasing.
Same procedure as with any regular transfer, with the addition of a return timer. That should not be too costly.
- Leasing should not be allowed to a third party where lease source do
not provide connectivity, to avoid fragmentation. Leasing should be only within the scope where LIRs can take responsibility.
LIRs are currently allowed to issue address space to other organisation by giving them either Assignments or sub-allocations depending on their needs of their customers.
So Policy wise this is already a fact that it is allowed, the temporary transfers would only formalise the transfer of authority in the APNIC database, also giving the recipient access to all the required tools to manage the space via MyAPNIC just like any other address space they have.
Supportive comments/Suggestions:
- It is better to allow temporary transfers and reflect the correct
user of an address prefix, than a situation where registry database can no longer point to correct user of a prefix
- Period of lease should be specified, such as for two years
That should be specified and agreed upon by the offering and receiving parties and communicated to APNIC.
- A suggestion to evaluate purpose of the address usage when approving
its request
It should be evaluated like any other transfer. No distinction in the process, if the need base policy is still there, then it should be evaluated with a need base evaluation and approval.
Best Regards,
Satoru Tsurumaki Policy Working Group Japan Open Policy Forum
2017-08-09 15:16 GMT+09:00 chku chku@twnic.net.tw:
Dear SIG members
The proposal "prop-119: Temporary transfers" was sent to the Policy SIG Mailing list in May 2017.
It will be presented at the Open Policy Meeting at APNIC 44 which will be held in Taichung, Taiwan on Wednesday and Thursday, 14 & 15 September 2017.
Information about the proposal is available from:
http://www.apnic.net/policy/proposals/prop-119You are encouraged to express your views on the proposal:
- Do you support or oppose the proposal?
- Do you see any disadvantages in this proposal?
- Is there anything in the proposal that is not clear?
- What changes could be made to this proposal to make it more effective?
Please find the text of the proposal below.
Kind Regards,
Sumon, Ching-Heng, Bertrand APNIC Policy SIG Chairs
prop-119-v001: Temporary transfers
Proposer: David Hilario d.hilario@laruscloudservice.net
- Problem statement
It is currently not possible for an organisation to receive a temporary transfer under the current policy framework. Some organisations do not want to have address space registered as assignments or sub-allocations, but would rather have the address space registered as "ALLOCATED PA".
- Objective of policy change
Create a possibility for temporary transfers that would allow organisations to have resources directly registered under them while they are the custodians of these resources on the Internet. While also guaranteeing that the offering party will under the APNIC policy be able to recover the resources once the “lease” time has expired unless specifically renewed.
- Situation in other regions
RIPE region has a concept of temporary transfers in their policies. This concept is not found in the other RIRs for the moment.
- Proposed policy solution
Adding to section "8.2.1. Conditions on the space to be transferred" the following paragraphs: It must be specified if the transfer is a permanent or temporary transfer.
A temporary transfer must have an end date, upon the end date the resources will be transferred back to the same origin account or its successor in the event of merger and acquisitions, unless the transfer is specifically prolonged and confirmed by both parties.
If the source account does no longer exist and has no successor, the space will then be returned to the origin RIR for the space. Temporary transfers cannot be further transferred.
- Advantages / Disadvantages
Advantages: Gives a greater flexibility in how LIRs manage and distribute their free pool. Enables organisation to receive address space in the way they intend.
Disadvantages: These transfers would be treated and appear as regular transfers, only APNIC the offering and receiving party will be aware of their temporary nature.
Organisations receiving such space, if they further assign it, must make be ready to renumber/revoke space from their customers and services then the lease expires, this is no different than a sub-allocation and implies the same limitations.
- Impact on resource holders
none
- References
Sig-policy-chair mailing list Sig-policy-chair@apnic.net https://mailman.apnic.net/mailman/listinfo/sig-policy-chair
sig-policy: APNIC SIG on resource management policy *
sig-policy mailing list sig-policy@lists.apnic.net https://mailman.apnic.net/mailman/listinfo/sig-policy
sig-policy: APNIC SIG on resource management policy *
sig-policy mailing list sig-policy@lists.apnic.net https://mailman.apnic.net/mailman/listinfo/sig-policy
David Hilario
IP Manager
Larus Cloud Service Limited
p: +852 29888918 m: +359 89 764 1784 f: +852 29888068 a: Flat B5, 11/F, TML Tower, No.3 Hoi Shing Road, Tsuen Wan, HKSAR w: laruscloudservice.net e: d.hilario@laruscloudservice.net
Dear David,
Thaank you for your comment.
The main point of our concern is if proposed with a set with prop-118, it may encourage the IP address to be used for abusive activities, to be able to regularly change IP address in a short time span.
Please see my comments inline as clarifications on feedback from the Japanese community.
2017-09-08 17:52 GMT+08:00 David Hilario d.hilario@laruscloudservice.net:
Dear Satoru,
Thank you for conveying the feedback here.
On 8 September 2017 at 09:32, Satoru Tsurumaki satoru.tsurumaki@g.softbank.co.jp wrote:
Dear Colleagues,
Satoru Tsurumaki, with Policy Working Group hat.
I would like to share key feedback in our community for prop-119, based on a meeting we organised on 5th Sep to discuss these proposals.
Many comments against this proposal were expressed. On the other hand, some expressed support for temporary transfer as a measure to increase accuracy in database.
Concerns/Opposing comments:
- Cannot understand the need of leasing, nor use of prefixes where
leasing is appropriate. Leasing of address space could encourage prefixes to be used for abuse. (As it accommodates change of address range if black listed)
The space will come from one LIR and returned to the same LIR. It really isn't the offering LIRs interest to have their space blacklisted. This is not different than when an LIR issues an IP delegation such as an Assignment of sub-allocation in the APNIC Database, just the lease is a bit more "formal: in that it is shown as a transfer of authority in the Database.
- It will be costly to the APNIC region to adopt complex scheme of leasing.
Same procedure as with any regular transfer, with the addition of a return timer. That should not be too costly.
I wasn't being clear enough here.
It will require some changes in APNIC database/WHOIS and add/change the operations of hostmaster to accommodate temporary transfers as well as for NIRs. The comment here was that it is not sure whether there is enough benefit to balance these costs (which is not just direct financial costs).
- Leasing should not be allowed to a third party where lease source do
not provide connectivity, to avoid fragmentation. Leasing should be only within the scope where LIRs can take responsibility.
LIRs are currently allowed to issue address space to other organisation by giving them either Assignments or sub-allocations depending on their needs of their customers.
So Policy wise this is already a fact that it is allowed, the temporary transfers would only formalise the transfer of authority in the APNIC database, also giving the recipient access to all the required tools to manage the space via MyAPNIC just like any other address space they have.
The implications of allowing lease to those who have connectivity with LIRs and those who do not are not the same.
Under the current policy, LIRs must only delegate address space to networks which they provide connectivity.
https://www.apnic.net/community/policy/resources#Part-1:-Policy-Environment
3.1.3. Aggregation
Address policies should seek to avoid fragmentation of address ranges.
Wherever possible, address space should be distributed in a hierarchical manner, according to the topology of network infrastructure. This is necessary to permit the aggregation of routing information by network operators, and to limit the expansion of Internet routing tables.
This goal is particularly important in IPv6 addressing, where the size of the total address pool creates significant implications for both internal and external routing.
It is a condition of all delegations made under initial or subsequent LIR delegation criteria, that the address space is aggregated by the LIR within a minimum number of route announcements (preferably one).
LIRs must only delegate addresses to customers who will be using those addresses in relation to network connectivity services provided by the LIR.
LIRs are expected to enter into agreements with their customers specifying that the end-user will hold the addresses only for so long as the end-user remains a customer of that LIR. Such agreements should also be consistent with the license under which the address space is being used by the LIR.
Supportive comments/Suggestions:
- It is better to allow temporary transfers and reflect the correct
user of an address prefix, than a situation where registry database can no longer point to correct user of a prefix
- Period of lease should be specified, such as for two years
That should be specified and agreed upon by the offering and receiving parties and communicated to APNIC.
- A suggestion to evaluate purpose of the address usage when approving
its request
It should be evaluated like any other transfer. No distinction in the process, if the need base policy is still there, then it should be evaluated with a need base evaluation and approval.
"prop-118: No need policy in APNIC region, to be dis cussed at APNIC 44 Policy SIG" is proposed by yourself, to remove needs base evaluation.
This suggestion to evaluate the purpose is hopefully to minimise leased address space to be used for abuse,
Best Regards,
Satoru Tsurumaki Policy Working Group Japan Open Policy Forum
2017-08-09 15:16 GMT+09:00 chku chku@twnic.net.tw:
Dear SIG members
The proposal "prop-119: Temporary transfers" was sent to the Policy SIG Mailing list in May 2017.
It will be presented at the Open Policy Meeting at APNIC 44 which will be held in Taichung, Taiwan on Wednesday and Thursday, 14 & 15 September 2017.
Information about the proposal is available from:
http://www.apnic.net/policy/proposals/prop-119You are encouraged to express your views on the proposal:
- Do you support or oppose the proposal?
- Do you see any disadvantages in this proposal?
- Is there anything in the proposal that is not clear?
- What changes could be made to this proposal to make it more effective?
Please find the text of the proposal below.
Kind Regards,
Sumon, Ching-Heng, Bertrand APNIC Policy SIG Chairs
prop-119-v001: Temporary transfers
Proposer: David Hilario d.hilario@laruscloudservice.net
- Problem statement
It is currently not possible for an organisation to receive a temporary transfer under the current policy framework. Some organisations do not want to have address space registered as assignments or sub-allocations, but would rather have the address space registered as "ALLOCATED PA".
- Objective of policy change
Create a possibility for temporary transfers that would allow organisations to have resources directly registered under them while they are the custodians of these resources on the Internet. While also guaranteeing that the offering party will under the APNIC policy be able to recover the resources once the “lease” time has expired unless specifically renewed.
- Situation in other regions
RIPE region has a concept of temporary transfers in their policies. This concept is not found in the other RIRs for the moment.
- Proposed policy solution
Adding to section "8.2.1. Conditions on the space to be transferred" the following paragraphs: It must be specified if the transfer is a permanent or temporary transfer.
A temporary transfer must have an end date, upon the end date the resources will be transferred back to the same origin account or its successor in the event of merger and acquisitions, unless the transfer is specifically prolonged and confirmed by both parties.
If the source account does no longer exist and has no successor, the space will then be returned to the origin RIR for the space. Temporary transfers cannot be further transferred.
- Advantages / Disadvantages
Advantages: Gives a greater flexibility in how LIRs manage and distribute their free pool. Enables organisation to receive address space in the way they intend.
Disadvantages: These transfers would be treated and appear as regular transfers, only APNIC the offering and receiving party will be aware of their temporary nature.
Organisations receiving such space, if they further assign it, must make be ready to renumber/revoke space from their customers and services then the lease expires, this is no different than a sub-allocation and implies the same limitations.
- Impact on resource holders
none
- References
Sig-policy-chair mailing list Sig-policy-chair@apnic.net https://mailman.apnic.net/mailman/listinfo/sig-policy-chair
sig-policy: APNIC SIG on resource management policy *
sig-policy mailing list sig-policy@lists.apnic.net https://mailman.apnic.net/mailman/listinfo/sig-policy
sig-policy: APNIC SIG on resource management policy *
sig-policy mailing list sig-policy@lists.apnic.net https://mailman.apnic.net/mailman/listinfo/sig-policy
David Hilario
IP Manager
Larus Cloud Service Limited
p: +852 29888918 m: +359 89 764 1784 f: +852 29888068 a: Flat B5, 11/F, TML Tower, No.3 Hoi Shing Road, Tsuen Wan, HKSAR w: laruscloudservice.net e: d.hilario@laruscloudservice.net
Dear David,
We support this proposal in general but we have one comment.
In your proposal, we cannot see the period of temporary transfer. We think that it is better to limit the period. For example, when they are going to back it within 2 years, the applicant can use this temporary transfer policy.
Regards, Hiroki
--- Hiroki Kawabata(kawabata@nic.ad.jp) Hostmaster, IP Address Department Japan Network Information Center(JPNIC)
Subject: [sig-policy] prop-119: Temporary transfers, to be discussed at APNIC 44 Polic y SIG From: chku chku@twnic.net.tw Date: Wed Aug 09 2017 15:16:20 GMT+0900
Dear SIG members
The proposal "prop-119: Temporary transfers" was sent to the Policy SIG Mailing list in May 2017.
It will be presented at the Open Policy Meeting at APNIC 44 which will be held in Taichung, Taiwan on Wednesday and Thursday, 14 & 15 September 2017.
Information about the proposal is available from:
http://www.apnic.net/policy/proposals/prop-119You are encouraged to express your views on the proposal:
- Do you support or oppose the proposal?
- Do you see any disadvantages in this proposal?
- Is there anything in the proposal that is not clear?
- What changes could be made to this proposal to make it more effective?
Please find the text of the proposal below.
Kind Regards,
Sumon, Ching-Heng, Bertrand APNIC Policy SIG Chairs
prop-119-v001: Temporary transfers
Proposer: David Hilario d.hilario@laruscloudservice.net
- Problem statement
It is currently not possible for an organisation to receive a temporary transfer under the current policy framework. Some organisations do not want to have address space registered as assignments or sub-allocations, but would rather have the address space registered as "ALLOCATED PA".
- Objective of policy change
Create a possibility for temporary transfers that would allow organisations to have resources directly registered under them while they are the custodians of these resources on the Internet. While also guaranteeing that the offering party will under the APNIC policy be able to recover the resources once the “lease” time has expired unless specifically renewed.
- Situation in other regions
RIPE region has a concept of temporary transfers in their policies. This concept is not found in the other RIRs for the moment.
- Proposed policy solution
Adding to section "8.2.1. Conditions on the space to be transferred" the following paragraphs: It must be specified if the transfer is a permanent or temporary transfer.
A temporary transfer must have an end date, upon the end date the resources will be transferred back to the same origin account or its successor in the event of merger and acquisitions, unless the transfer is specifically prolonged and confirmed by both parties.
If the source account does no longer exist and has no successor, the space will then be returned to the origin RIR for the space. Temporary transfers cannot be further transferred.
- Advantages / Disadvantages
Advantages: Gives a greater flexibility in how LIRs manage and distribute their free pool. Enables organisation to receive address space in the way they intend.
Disadvantages: These transfers would be treated and appear as regular transfers, only APNIC the offering and receiving party will be aware of their temporary nature.
Organisations receiving such space, if they further assign it, must make be ready to renumber/revoke space from their customers and services then the lease expires, this is no different than a sub-allocation and implies the same limitations.
- Impact on resource holders
none
- References
Sig-policy-chair mailing list Sig-policy-chair@apnic.net https://mailman.apnic.net/mailman/listinfo/sig-policy-chair
sig-policy: APNIC SIG on resource management policy *
sig-policy mailing list sig-policy@lists.apnic.net https://mailman.apnic.net/mailman/listinfo/sig-policy
In the policy it only says "A temporary transfer must have an end date". What about the end date ? Who will define the end ? Is it define by requester who are interest to temporary transfer resource to receiver ?
*Regards / Jahangir *
On Wed, Aug 9, 2017 at 12:16 PM, chku chku@twnic.net.tw wrote:
Dear SIG members
The proposal "prop-119: Temporary transfers" was sent to the Policy SIG Mailing list in May 2017.
It will be presented at the Open Policy Meeting at APNIC 44 which will be held in Taichung, Taiwan on Wednesday and Thursday, 14 & 15 September 2017.
Information about the proposal is available from:
http://www.apnic.net/policy/proposals/prop-119You are encouraged to express your views on the proposal:
- Do you support or oppose the proposal?
- Do you see any disadvantages in this proposal?
- Is there anything in the proposal that is not clear?
- What changes could be made to this proposal to make it more effective?
Please find the text of the proposal below.
Kind Regards,
Sumon, Ching-Heng, Bertrand APNIC Policy SIG Chairs
prop-119-v001: Temporary transfers
Proposer: David Hilario d.hilario@laruscloudservice.net
- Problem statement
It is currently not possible for an organisation to receive a temporary transfer under the current policy framework. Some organisations do not want to have address space registered as assignments or sub-allocations, but would rather have the address space registered as "ALLOCATED PA".
- Objective of policy change
Create a possibility for temporary transfers that would allow organisations to have resources directly registered under them while they are the custodians of these resources on the Internet. While also guaranteeing that the offering party will under the APNIC policy be able to recover the resources once the “lease” time has expired unless specifically renewed.
- Situation in other regions
RIPE region has a concept of temporary transfers in their policies. This concept is not found in the other RIRs for the moment.
- Proposed policy solution
Adding to section "8.2.1. Conditions on the space to be transferred" the following paragraphs: It must be specified if the transfer is a permanent or temporary transfer.
A temporary transfer must have an end date, upon the end date the resources will be transferred back to the same origin account or its successor in the event of merger and acquisitions, unless the transfer is specifically prolonged and confirmed by both parties.
If the source account does no longer exist and has no successor, the space will then be returned to the origin RIR for the space. Temporary transfers cannot be further transferred.
- Advantages / Disadvantages
Advantages: Gives a greater flexibility in how LIRs manage and distribute their free pool. Enables organisation to receive address space in the way they intend.
Disadvantages: These transfers would be treated and appear as regular transfers, only APNIC the offering and receiving party will be aware of their temporary nature.
Organisations receiving such space, if they further assign it, must make be ready to renumber/revoke space from their customers and services then the lease expires, this is no different than a sub-allocation and implies the same limitations.
- Impact on resource holders
none
- References
Sig-policy-chair mailing list Sig-policy-chair@apnic.net https://mailman.apnic.net/mailman/listinfo/sig-policy-chair
sig-policy: APNIC SIG on resource management policy
sig-policy mailing list sig-policy@lists.apnic.net https://mailman.apnic.net/mailman/listinfo/sig-policy
--
Hi Hossain and Hiroki,
Thank you for the question,
Yes the agreement between the offering party and receiving party would need to have an end date for the transfer for the transfer to be defined as and handled as temporary.
Duration of the transfer is up to the offering and receiving party.
For the rest, it should be treated like any other transfer request no difference.
Regards, David Hilario
IP Manager
Larus Cloud Service Limited
p: +852 29888918 m: +359 89 764 1784 f: +852 29888068 a: Flat B5, 11/F, TML Tower, No.3 Hoi Shing Road, Tsuen Wan, HKSAR w: laruscloudservice.net e: d.hilario@laruscloudservice.net
On 10 September 2017 at 10:09, Jahangir Hossain jahangir@parween.net wrote:
In the policy it only says "A temporary transfer must have an end date". What about the end date ? Who will define the end ? Is it define by requester who are interest to temporary transfer resource to receiver ?
Regards / Jahangir
On Wed, Aug 9, 2017 at 12:16 PM, chku chku@twnic.net.tw wrote:
Dear SIG members
The proposal "prop-119: Temporary transfers" was sent to the Policy SIG Mailing list in May 2017.
It will be presented at the Open Policy Meeting at APNIC 44 which will be held in Taichung, Taiwan on Wednesday and Thursday, 14 & 15 September 2017.
Information about the proposal is available from:
http://www.apnic.net/policy/proposals/prop-119You are encouraged to express your views on the proposal:
- Do you support or oppose the proposal?
- Do you see any disadvantages in this proposal?
- Is there anything in the proposal that is not clear?
- What changes could be made to this proposal to make it more effective?
Please find the text of the proposal below.
Kind Regards,
Sumon, Ching-Heng, Bertrand APNIC Policy SIG Chairs
prop-119-v001: Temporary transfers
Proposer: David Hilario d.hilario@laruscloudservice.net
- Problem statement
It is currently not possible for an organisation to receive a temporary transfer under the current policy framework. Some organisations do not want to have address space registered as assignments or sub-allocations, but would rather have the address space registered as "ALLOCATED PA".
- Objective of policy change
Create a possibility for temporary transfers that would allow organisations to have resources directly registered under them while they are the custodians of these resources on the Internet. While also guaranteeing that the offering party will under the APNIC policy be able to recover the resources once the “lease” time has expired unless specifically renewed.
- Situation in other regions
RIPE region has a concept of temporary transfers in their policies. This concept is not found in the other RIRs for the moment.
- Proposed policy solution
Adding to section "8.2.1. Conditions on the space to be transferred" the following paragraphs: It must be specified if the transfer is a permanent or temporary transfer.
A temporary transfer must have an end date, upon the end date the resources will be transferred back to the same origin account or its successor in the event of merger and acquisitions, unless the transfer is specifically prolonged and confirmed by both parties.
If the source account does no longer exist and has no successor, the space will then be returned to the origin RIR for the space. Temporary transfers cannot be further transferred.
- Advantages / Disadvantages
Advantages: Gives a greater flexibility in how LIRs manage and distribute their free pool. Enables organisation to receive address space in the way they intend.
Disadvantages: These transfers would be treated and appear as regular transfers, only APNIC the offering and receiving party will be aware of their temporary nature.
Organisations receiving such space, if they further assign it, must make be ready to renumber/revoke space from their customers and services then the lease expires, this is no different than a sub-allocation and implies the same limitations.
- Impact on resource holders
none
- References
Sig-policy-chair mailing list Sig-policy-chair@apnic.net https://mailman.apnic.net/mailman/listinfo/sig-policy-chair
sig-policy: APNIC SIG on resource management policy
sig-policy mailing list sig-policy@lists.apnic.net https://mailman.apnic.net/mailman/listinfo/sig-policy
--
sig-policy: APNIC SIG on resource management policy
sig-policy mailing list sig-policy@lists.apnic.net https://mailman.apnic.net/mailman/listinfo/sig-policy
I oppose this policy.
Any legitimate case for a “temporary transfer” that I can envision would be supported through SWIP from an LIR providing services.
Otherwise, this amounts to a lease-style transaction which is most popular when related to activities that are generally considered harmful to the internet (snowshoe spamming being the most common example).
Owen
On Aug 9, 2017, at 2:16 AM, chku chku@twnic.net.tw wrote:
Dear SIG members
The proposal "prop-119: Temporary transfers" was sent to the Policy SIG Mailing list in May 2017.
It will be presented at the Open Policy Meeting at APNIC 44 which will be held in Taichung, Taiwan on Wednesday and Thursday, 14 & 15 September 2017.
Information about the proposal is available from:
http://www.apnic.net/policy/proposals/prop-119
You are encouraged to express your views on the proposal:
- Do you support or oppose the proposal?
- Do you see any disadvantages in this proposal?
- Is there anything in the proposal that is not clear?
- What changes could be made to this proposal to make it more effective?
Please find the text of the proposal below.
Kind Regards,
Sumon, Ching-Heng, Bertrand APNIC Policy SIG Chairs
prop-119-v001: Temporary transfers
Proposer: David Hilario d.hilario@laruscloudservice.net
- Problem statement
It is currently not possible for an organisation to receive a temporary transfer under the current policy framework. Some organisations do not want to have address space registered as assignments or sub-allocations, but would rather have the address space registered as "ALLOCATED PA".
- Objective of policy change
Create a possibility for temporary transfers that would allow organisations to have resources directly registered under them while they are the custodians of these resources on the Internet. While also guaranteeing that the offering party will under the APNIC policy be able to recover the resources once the “lease” time has expired unless specifically renewed.
- Situation in other regions
RIPE region has a concept of temporary transfers in their policies. This concept is not found in the other RIRs for the moment.
- Proposed policy solution
Adding to section "8.2.1. Conditions on the space to be transferred" the following paragraphs: It must be specified if the transfer is a permanent or temporary transfer.
A temporary transfer must have an end date, upon the end date the resources will be transferred back to the same origin account or its successor in the event of merger and acquisitions, unless the transfer is specifically prolonged and confirmed by both parties.
If the source account does no longer exist and has no successor, the space will then be returned to the origin RIR for the space. Temporary transfers cannot be further transferred.
- Advantages / Disadvantages
Advantages: Gives a greater flexibility in how LIRs manage and distribute their free pool. Enables organisation to receive address space in the way they intend.
Disadvantages: These transfers would be treated and appear as regular transfers, only APNIC the offering and receiving party will be aware of their temporary nature.
Organisations receiving such space, if they further assign it, must make be ready to renumber/revoke space from their customers and services then the lease expires, this is no different than a sub-allocation and implies the same limitations.
- Impact on resource holders
none
- References
Sig-policy-chair mailing list Sig-policy-chair@apnic.net https://mailman.apnic.net/mailman/listinfo/sig-policy-chair <00.txt>* sig-policy: APNIC SIG on resource management policy * _______________________________________________ sig-policy mailing list sig-policy@lists.apnic.net https://mailman.apnic.net/mailman/listinfo/sig-policy
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