Re: [sig-policy] What is consensus ?
There is an AUP for the list ? Can it be used for the meetings itself ? I
mean, in case of abuse or attack of any participant, are the chairs the
responsible of excluding that participant for new participation ?
Regards,
Jordi
> De: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ <jordi.palet at consulintel dot es>
> Responder a: <jordi.palet at consulintel dot es>
> Fecha: Tue, 06 Mar 2007 09:49:05 +0100
> Para: "sig-policy at lists dot apnic dot net" <sig-policy at lists dot apnic dot net>
> Conversación: What is consensus ?
> Asunto: [sig-policy] What is consensus ?
>
> Hi Toshiyuki,
>
> I'm sure you followed my previous two emails. For this reason I've changed
> the subject of this thread. I really think there is an important issue here.
> I'm not talking any more about proposal A or B, just using them as possible
> examples of what I think raises some questions that can help to improve our
> work and actually make your work as a chair easier (hopefully).
>
> I think we need to find a good definition for consensus.
>
> We need to find then if consensus is the right think or we need an
> alternative.
>
> I think we don't want just "majority" but I think also "unanimity" is
> impossible.
>
> We can't expect everyone to agree, it will be ideal, but almost impossible
> to happen with every proposal.
>
> Just some thoughts. I hope to heard what other folks think !
>
> Regards,
> Jordi
>
>
>
>
>> De: Toshiyuki Hosaka <hosaka at nic dot ad dot jp>
>> Responder a: <hosaka at nic dot ad dot jp>
>> Fecha: Mon, 05 Mar 2007 11:04:54 +0900
>> Para: <jordi.palet at consulintel dot es>
>> CC: "sig-policy at lists dot apnic dot net" <sig-policy at lists dot apnic dot net>
>> Asunto: Re: [sig-policy] Policy SIG meeting yesterday
>>
>> Hi Jordi,
>>
>> Hope you had safe trip to home.
>>
>> As you pointed out consensus is not unanimity. But not simple majority
>> decision either. Regarding your first proposal, namely prop-042, there
>> was a support to your proposal but was strong objections as well. In
>> addition to that, according to show of hands there was a few more
>> persons other than who spoke in front of a mike who were opposed to your
>> proposal.
>>
>> Thus I couldn't declare that was a consensus.
>>
>> I hope we can discuss more on the proposal in advance in future, to have
>> more productive discussion in the meeting place. I will try to do my
>> best to facilitate it.
>>
>> thanks and best regards,
>> Toshi
>> --
>> Toshiyuki Hosaka
>> JPNIC
>>
>>
>> JORDI PALET MARTINEZ wrote (2007/03/02 18:03):
>>> Hi all,
>>>
>>> Regarding the Policy SIG yesterday and more specifically proposal 042, after
>>> getting some more feedback from some other folks and also sleeping on it,
>>> I've to raise some concerns.
>>>
>>> I know measuring consensus is not easy, but clearly consensus is not
>>> unanimity and there was a clear superior number of people in favor than
>>> opposing the proposal.
>>>
>>> Furthermore, there were no negative comments in the mail exploder since it
>>> was presented.
>>>
>>> So, with all the respect, I think the achievement of consensus for this
>>> policy should be reconsidered. Otherwise, we could also think that the
>>> consensus in previous meetings, for other policy proposals (not naming any
>>> in particular), has also never reached, as always there were comments and
>>> votes against, and the consensus was declared when a similar proportion of
>>> people was in favor vs. against.
>>>
>>> Moreover, in my opinion, yesterday the personal and unpleasant attacks that
>>> a single participant launched against me (not the proposals) created a clear
>>> situation of breach of the process and some folks may have been predisposed
>>> against the proponent, and thus influenced some which may have decided not
>>> to vote at all, or even voting against the proposals as a way to vote
>>> "against" the proponent, which is not the intent of the process.
>>>
>>> I expect that this kind of situation is not allowed in future meetings,
>>> hopefully. I think I was very kind in front of the attacks received, and
>>> under other situations, such as using my own native language instead of
>>> English, could have taken a very different reaction and become even more
>>> rude that the attacker itself, which I not did also in order to respect the
>>> rest of participants and try to play a fair game despite the situation.
>>>
>>> It is clear that, all kind of respectful critics to discuss any proposal
>>> merits are part of the process, are needed and welcome, and I fully support
>>> them. However unpleasant comments as we had yesterday which even reached to
>>> the point of not allowing the presenter to continue defending the proposal.
>>>
>>> This has also a very negative impact towards the process and the people
>>> participating, which under this kind of pressure could consider that is not
>>> worth to invest the time in submitting a proposal and defending it, as they
>>> can be "freely" attacked, specially in regions where because cultural
>>> reasons, difficulties with the language, or any other reasons, participants
>>> are typically shy and not precisely prone to speak up. I think it is a clear
>>> manipulation of the process.
>>>
>>> I also want to clarify the reason I had 4 proposals, as this was part of the
>>> attack. Before the previous meeting I submitted a single proposal, and it
>>> seems that it was considered complex to understand and to decide about it,
>>> so following staff recommendations, I decided to split it in several, in
>>> order to help the people to read them one by one and consider each part as a
>>> simpler piece.
>>>
>>> Also, part of the attack was about the waste of time, and in fact I think we
>>> used about 60% of the time that was originally allocated for this. It was
>>> not my intend to ask anyone to waste their time, but more on the other way,
>>> facilitate all to understand the proposal and take a position about it, and
>>> this is part of the process.
>>>
>>> I believe that the most important think in this process is not to discourage
>>> people, and what happened yesterday is clearly doing so. The process is not
>>> set for or to allow attack people presenting, otherwise we are measuring the
>>> presenter merits, not the proposal ones.
>>>
>>> And last, but not least, in my humble opinion, delaying a proposal that in
>>> my opinion reached consensus can be actually considered as a real "denial of
>>> service" attack to the process and it means that all spend our time in
>>> discussing it again when it is not really needed and acting unfairly among
>>> different proposals.
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> Jordi
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> **********************************************
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>>>
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>>>
>>> * sig-policy: APNIC SIG on resource management policy
>>> *
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> sig-policy mailing list
>>> sig-policy at lists dot apnic dot net
>>> http://mailman.apnic.net/mailman/listinfo/sig-policy
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
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