Re: [sig-policy] Policy SIG meeting yesterday
Responding first to the easier part :-), the proposals where not the same.
Actually instead of submitting the same proposal again considering the
points raised during the discussions in the previous APNIC meeting, APNIC
staff suggested that part of the problem was that a single proposal with
many items was difficult to read, evaluate and decide, because one may have
different ideas at every part. So, following their suggestion, I break down
the proposal in four proposals and some of the text was modified.
I think this was positive as at least for part of the proposals I saw many
more people in favor, so I'm convinced that many more people read them and
was able to take a position.
I agree that the decision about if consensus has been reached or not is at
chair's discretion, and as you well said, to some extent. I'm not
criticizing the chairs at all. I just really think that actually is almost
impossible for them to do it without more concrete guidelines. Basically:
what is the exact definition, an objective one about "consensus" so they can
take a fair decision ?
Last, one small clarification. I don't think we can say there was a fight in
the meeting. For a fight you need at least two people involved, and I tried
to avoid that being polite and as elegant as one can be in a situation where
you get attacked in front of hundreds of other folks. So despite that, what
is clear to me is that the situation affected the view of many people on the
room and we should avoid this kind of manipulation in the process,
otherwise, is no longer an open process.
Regards,
Jordi
> De: Takashi Arano <arano at inetcore dot com>
> Responder a: <arano at inetcore dot com>
> Fecha: Sat, 03 Mar 2007 03:54:01 +0900
> Para: <jordi.palet at consulintel dot es>
> CC: "sig-policy at lists dot apnic dot net" <sig-policy at lists dot apnic dot net>
> Asunto: Re: [sig-policy] Policy SIG meeting yesterday
>
> Hi, Jordi,
>
> Several points.
>
> Decision of consensus should be chair's descretion to some extent.
> If someone has objection or questions about consensus, he/she should
> make objection right away, not one day after the meeting.
> Otherwise, meeting itself would not make sense.
> This is my understanding.
>
> Second, I have some sympathy with you about personal attack to you.
> I don't want to see such ugly fight at the meeting.
>
> On the other hand, also we don't want to see the same proposal with
> the same way of logic/explanation are repeated. I expect proposals
> in the second time or later to be more carefully considered.
> # I may misunderstand, but I thought you proposed almost same as previously.
>
> Hope policy SIG to be better place for fruitful discussion than ever.
>
> Regards,
> Takashi Arano
>
>
> At 18:03 07/03/02, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ wrote:
>> Hi all,
>>
>> Regarding the Policy SIG yesterday and more specifically proposal 042, after
>> getting some more feedback from some other folks and also sleeping on it,
>> I've to raise some concerns.
>>
>> I know measuring consensus is not easy, but clearly consensus is not
>> unanimity and there was a clear superior number of people in favor than
>> opposing the proposal.
>>
>> Furthermore, there were no negative comments in the mail exploder since it
>> was presented.
>>
>> So, with all the respect, I think the achievement of consensus for this
>> policy should be reconsidered. Otherwise, we could also think that the
>> consensus in previous meetings, for other policy proposals (not naming any
>> in particular), has also never reached, as always there were comments and
>> votes against, and the consensus was declared when a similar proportion of
>> people was in favor vs. against.
>>
>> Moreover, in my opinion, yesterday the personal and unpleasant attacks that
>> a single participant launched against me (not the proposals) created a clear
>> situation of breach of the process and some folks may have been predisposed
>> against the proponent, and thus influenced some which may have decided not
>> to vote at all, or even voting against the proposals as a way to vote
>> "against" the proponent, which is not the intent of the process.
>>
>> I expect that this kind of situation is not allowed in future meetings,
>> hopefully. I think I was very kind in front of the attacks received, and
>> under other situations, such as using my own native language instead of
>> English, could have taken a very different reaction and become even more
>> rude that the attacker itself, which I not did also in order to respect the
>> rest of participants and try to play a fair game despite the situation.
>>
>> It is clear that, all kind of respectful critics to discuss any proposal
>> merits are part of the process, are needed and welcome, and I fully support
>> them. However unpleasant comments as we had yesterday which even reached to
>> the point of not allowing the presenter to continue defending the proposal.
>>
>> This has also a very negative impact towards the process and the people
>> participating, which under this kind of pressure could consider that is not
>> worth to invest the time in submitting a proposal and defending it, as they
>> can be "freely" attacked, specially in regions where because cultural
>> reasons, difficulties with the language, or any other reasons, participants
>> are typically shy and not precisely prone to speak up. I think it is a clear
>> manipulation of the process.
>>
>> I also want to clarify the reason I had 4 proposals, as this was part of the
>> attack. Before the previous meeting I submitted a single proposal, and it
>> seems that it was considered complex to understand and to decide about it,
>> so following staff recommendations, I decided to split it in several, in
>> order to help the people to read them one by one and consider each part as a
>> simpler piece.
>>
>> Also, part of the attack was about the waste of time, and in fact I think we
>> used about 60% of the time that was originally allocated for this. It was
>> not my intend to ask anyone to waste their time, but more on the other way,
>> facilitate all to understand the proposal and take a position about it, and
>> this is part of the process.
>>
>> I believe that the most important think in this process is not to discourage
>> people, and what happened yesterday is clearly doing so. The process is not
>> set for or to allow attack people presenting, otherwise we are measuring the
>> presenter merits, not the proposal ones.
>>
>> And last, but not least, in my humble opinion, delaying a proposal that in
>> my opinion reached consensus can be actually considered as a real "denial of
>> service" attack to the process and it means that all spend our time in
>> discussing it again when it is not really needed and acting unfairly among
>> different proposals.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Jordi
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
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