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                        Looking into English dictionaries and trying to make something specific to our case. Maybe:
Providing Internet Number Resources for a price (paid in any form) or even for free, when not tied to a direct connectivity service.
Regards,
Jordi
@jordipalet
El 7/9/22, 15:35, "Mike Burns" mike@sum.net escribió:
Hello,
If we don't have a definition of Leasing we can't fully consider the issues of enforcement, among other items.
As with many things the devil is in the details.
Regards,
Mike
Sent from my T-Mobile 4G LTE Device
-------- Original message --------
From: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ via sig-policy sig-policy@lists.apnic.net
Date: 9/7/22 8:54 AM (GMT-05:00)
To: sig-policy sig-policy@lists.apnic.net
Subject: [sig-policy] Re: New version - prop-148: Clarification - Leasing of Resources is not Acceptable
Hi Brett,
I’m not saying that I reject a definition, what I’m saying is that I don’t think is needed, despite that I’m happy to include it if we agree on that, as can’t be other way, as this is the way we write proposals: understanding what the community want (not just the authors).
I’ve not been able to see the video of the discussion. Is it available? Maybe the staff can provide it, so I can better understand all the points?
Could you suggest a wording of leasing according to you view, to see if we can make it happen?
Regards,
Jordi
@jordipalet
El 7/9/22, 14:41, "Brett O'Hara" brett@fj.com.au escribió:
Hi Jordi,
You have stated that you do need a definition because "any form of leasing is unacceptable", and yet I was verbally assured at the APNIC 54 Policy Proposals Webinar on the 25th of August, that several examples of leasing were acceptable, but not documented in the proposal.  My request for a definition in the proposal was positively received by the SIG and we left the issue to the authors.  If the response from the authors is that the definition is not necessary, I can't see how we can endorse the proposal.
Regards,
Brett
On Wed, Sep 7, 2022 at 8:30 PM JORDI PALET MARTINEZ via sig-policy sig-policy@lists.apnic.net wrote:
Hi Satoru, all,
We haven't defined leasing, because it is common English term, not something specific to "addresses".  I can understand that in other languages, it may not be the same, but because the policies are bound to the English language, we didn't feel the need to define it.
In fact, we had a similar discussion about that in LACNIC 6 months ago, and we decided to make a new version, which is the same as we published in APNIC. The point was to stress that "any form of leasing" is unacceptable. If you read that in the context of the policy, it starts, as you already mention "own infrastructure or directly connected customers". So, anything beyond that will be a form of leasing (never mind if you pay a fee for the addresses or they are free of charge, or you pay before you use them or afterwards, etc., basically "anything not linked to connectivity").
I don't think the implementation is a problem. We know that many proposals come with some challenges, however, the community, anyone, can and should help on that. Anyone knowing or getting a leasing offer should communicate about that. And by the way, I think will not be so dificult to create an automated way of detecting it, just by ensuring that the users of any APNIC block is directly connected to the AS of the resource holder.
Regards,
Jordi
@jordipalet
El 2/9/22, 7:15, "Tsurumaki, Satoru" stsuruma@bbix.net escribió:
Dear Colleagues,
I am Satoru Tsurumaki from Japan Open Policy Forum Steering Team..
I would like to share key feedback in our community for prop-148,
    based on a meeting we organised on 29th Aug to discuss these proposals.
Many participants support the intent of the proposal but felt that
    implementation would be challenging.
(comment details)
    - It is undisputed that the current policy allows for the distribution
      of IP addresses according to the actual demand of one's own
      organization or directly connected customers, and does not allow for
      the leasing of IP addresses.
    - I think this proposal would be useful if the concept of leasing is
　     accurately defined.
    - Leasing IP addresses that damage the accuracy of whois information
      should not be allowed, but I find it difficult to implement.
Regards,
Satoru Tsurumaki / JPOPF Steering Team
2022年8月26日(金) 17:27 Shaila Sharmin shaila.sharmin.ovi@gmail.com:
    >
    > Dear SIG members,
    >
    > A new version of the proposal "prop-148-v002: Clarification - Leasing of
    > Resources is not Acceptable" has been sent to the Policy SIG for review.
    >
    > Information about earlier versions is available from:
    >
    > http://www.apnic.net/policy/proposals/prop-148
    >
    > You are encouraged to express your views on the proposal:
    >
    >   - Do you support or oppose the proposal?
    >   - Is there anything in the proposal that is not clear?
    >   - What changes could be made to this proposal to make it more effective?
    >
    > Please find the text of the proposal below.
    >
    > Regards,
    > Bertrand, Shaila, and Ching-Heng
    > APNIC Policy SIG Chairs
    >
    >
    > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
    > prop-148-v002: Clarification - Leasing of Resources is not Acceptable
    > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
    >
    > Proposer: Jordi Palet Martinez (jordi.palet@theipv6company.comAnupam)
    >            Amrita Choudhury (amritachoudhury@ccaoi.in)
    >            Fernando Frediani (fhfredani@gmail.com)
    >
    >
    > 1. Problem statement
    > --------------------
    > RIRs have been conceived to manage, allocate and assign resources
    > according to need, in such a way that a LIR/ISP has addresses to be able
    > to directly connect its customers based on justified need. Addresses are
    > not, therefore, a property with which to trade or do business.
    >
    > When the justification of the need disappears or changes, for whatever
    > reasons, the expected thing would be to return said addresses to the
    > RIR, otherwise according to Section 4.1. (“The original basis of the
    > delegation remains valid”) and 4.1.2. (“Made for a specific purpose that
    > no longer exists, or based on information that is later found to be
    > false or incomplete”) of the policy manual, APNIC is not enforced to
    > renew the license. An alternative is to transfer these resources using
    > the appropriate transfer policy.
    >
    > If the leasing of addresses is authorized, contrary to the original
    > spirit of the policies and the very existence of the RIRs, the link
    > between connectivity and addresses disappears, which also poses security
    > problems, since, in the absence of connectivity, the resource holder who
    > has received the license to use the addresses does not have immediate
    > physical control to manage/filter them, which can cause damage to the
    > entire community.
    >
    > Therefore, it should be made explicit in the Policies that the Internet
    > Resources should not be leased “per se”, but only as part of a direct
    > connectivity service.
    >
    > The existing policies of APNIC are not explicit about that, however
    > current policies do not regard the leasing of addresses as acceptable,
    > if they are not an integral part of a connectivity service.
    > Specifically, the justification of the need would not be valid for those
    > blocks of addresses whose purpose is not to directly connect customers
    > of an LIR/ISP, and consequently the renewal of the annual license for
    > the use of the addresses would not be valid either. Sections 3.2.6.
    > (Address ownership), 3.2.7. (Address stockpiling) and 3.2.8.
    > (Reservations not supported) of the policy manual, are keys on this
    > issue, but an explicit clarification is required.
    >
    >
    > 2. Objective of policy change
    > -----------------------------
    > Despite the fact that the intention in this regard underlies the entire
    > Policy Manual text and is thus applied to justify the need for
    > resources, this proposal makes this aspect explicit by adding the
    > appropriate clarifying text.
    >
    >
    > 3. Situation in other regions
    > -----------------------------
    > In other RIRs, the leasing of addresses is not authorized either and
    > since it is not explicit in their policy manuals either, this proposal
    > will be presented as well.
    >
    > Nothing is currently mentioned in RIPE about this and it is not
    > acceptable as a justification of the need. In AFRINIC and LACNIC, the
    > staff has confirmed that address leasing is not considered as valid for
    > the justification. In ARIN it is not considered valid as justification
    > of need.
    >
    > A similar proposal is under discussion in LACNIC and ARIN.
    >
    >
    > 4. Proposed policy solution
    > ---------------------------
    > 5.8. Leasing of Internet Number Resources
    >
    > In the case of Internet number resources delegated by APNIC or an NIR,
    > the justification of the need implies the need to use on their own
    > infrastructure and/or network connectivity services provided directly to
    > customers. As a result, any form of IP address leasing is unacceptable,
    > nor does it justify the need, if it is not part of a set of services
    > based, at the very least, on direct connectivity. Even for networks that
    > are not connected to the Internet, leasing of IP addresses is not
    > permitted, because such sites can request direct assignments from APNIC
    > or the relevant NIR and, in the case of IPv4, use private addresses or
    > arrange market transfers.
    >
    > APNIC may proactively investigate those cases and also initiate the
    > investigation in case of reports by means of a form, email address or
    > other means developed by APNIC.
    >
    > If any form of leasing, regardless of when the delegation has been
    > issued, is confirmed by an APNIC investigation, it will be considered a
    > policy violation and revocation may apply against any account holders
    > who are leasing or using them for any purposes not specified in the
    > initial request.
    >
    >
    > 5. Advantages / Disadvantages
    > -----------------------------
    > Advantages:
    > Fulfilling the objective above indicated and making the policy clear.
    >
    > Disadvantages:
    > None.
    >
    >
    > 6. Impact on resource holders
    > -----------------------------
    > None.
    >
    >
    > 7. References
    > -------------
    > https://www.arin.net/participate/policy/proposals/2022/ARIN_prop_308_v2/
    > https://politicas.lacnic.net/politicas/detail/id/LAC-2022-2/language/en
    > _______________________________________________
    > sig-policy - sig-policy@lists.apnic.net <https://mailman.apnic.net/<a href=>/">https://mailman.apnic.net/sig-policy@lists.apnic.net/
    > To unsubscribe send an email to sig-policy-leave@lists.apnic.net
-- 
    --
    Satoru Tsurumaki
    BBIX, Inc
    _______________________________________________
    sig-policy - sig-policy@lists.apnic.net <https://mailman.apnic.net/<a href=>/">https://mailman.apnic.net/sig-policy@lists.apnic.net/
    To unsubscribe send an email to sig-policy-leave@lists.apnic.net
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This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or confidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use of the individual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited and will be considered a criminal offense. If you are not the intended recipient be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited, will be considered a criminal offense, so you must reply to the original sender to inform about this communication and delete it.

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