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Hi Randy,
You are quite right - the paragraph, and indeed the entire the proposal, requires a lot of thought.
When I was drafting the proposal I focused on the aspects of improving the overall processes for all members such that we see improvements in:
o the speed of updates o the value of feedback (success/failure) o reducing the reliance on intermediate systems and processes (such as SMTP and its behaviours) o reducing the prerequisite knowledge needed to use the APNIC registry and of course o meeting the security needs of a registry function
One of my concerns was that adding security features to email to match the necessary security levels might actually add layers of complexity for the registrant.
When I wrote that paragraph I had two things in mind, "how much work would any member need to do to send an update to APNIC?" and "what level of infrastructure would be required to adequately support that service?".
The scenarios I worked through suggested conclusions where APNIC could be at risk of adding to the members' work effort and possibly increasing APNIC's support costs by implementing such security mechanisms in email.
Cheers Terry
On 07/08/2006, at 6:16 PM, Randy Bush wrote:
The mechanisms for securing the contents of an email and
validating the identity of the author of the update are weak by modern standards. Although there are ways of improving the use of email for secure transactions, these are not considered sufficiently scaleable.
i believe this paragraph needs considerable justification before this proposal can be justified, particularly as it proposes to make things significantly more difficult for the smallest and most poorly connected registrants, who would otherwise seem, at leat to me, to be deserving of our going the extra kilometer to support.
-- Terry Manderson email: terry@apnic.net Snr Systems & Network Architect, APNIC sip: info@voip.apnic.net http://www.apnic.net phone: +61 7 3858 3100

One of my concerns was that adding security features to email to match the necessary security levels might actually add layers of complexity for the registrant.
for those using web, or only for those whose means of access is limited by choice or circumstances to email?
The scenarios I worked through suggested conclusions where APNIC could be at risk of adding to the members' work effort and possibly increasing APNIC's support costs by implementing such security mechanisms in email.
could you explain? the other registries seem to find pgp email doable. is that not sufficient? is the issue what happens when you want to go to x.509-based signatures.
i.e. "it will be harder" might gain some sympathy if there was also a "because ..."
randy

Hi Randy,
On 09/08/2006, at 1:42 AM, Randy Bush wrote:
for those using web, or only for those whose means of access is limited by choice or circumstances to email?
The comparative complexity is much higher in secure encrypted email based mechanisms. But you do raise an interesting question, how many members of APNIC are limited to email for internet traffic and unable to reach a web page or establish a tcp connection to port 443 for a REST conversation?
could you explain? the other registries seem to find pgp email doable. is that not sufficient? is the issue what happens when you want to go to x.509-based signatures.
The other registries accepting email based updates (Afrinic, RIPE, and ARIN) certainly do make both pgp and x.509 signed email systems work now. Although I think it is important to note that at present they support only signed emails, not encrypted emails. For the longer term registry model I don't believe it to be sufficient.
i.e. "it will be harder" might gain some sympathy if there was also a "because ..."
I'm a little worried that we might fall into a trap of focusing on "ways to make email work" instead of realising that email no longer fits into the registry model due to the growing need for all transactions with the APNIC registry to be encrypted and authorised using strong authentication methods with an immediate feedback cycle. I think it is worthwhile to also consider the improved workflows that a XML/REST system provides. I see these workflows as a prerequisite to the interactions that future registry functions are going to need. Such future functions that centre around resource certification.
Further to this is the existing concern that email has proved to be of varying reliability due to anti-spam implementations and what I describe as a growing social intolerance of automated mail flows. I would expect that APNIC's due diligence covers ensuring that any updates sent to APNIC are received in good order and replies similarly received by the registrant. Unfortunately we can't make such guarantees with any form of email.
Terry -- Terry Manderson email: terry@apnic.net Snr Systems & Network Architect, APNIC sip: info@voip.apnic.net http://www.apnic.net phone: +61 7 3858 3100

I'm a little worried that we might fall into a trap of focusing on "ways to make email work" instead of realising that email no longer fits into the registry model due to the growing need for all transactions with the APNIC registry to be encrypted and authorised using strong authentication methods with an immediate feedback cycle.
and other than the 'immediate' for which i am not sure i see the absolute need, why is encrypted and signed email satisfactory?
I think it is worthwhile to also consider the improved workflows that a XML/REST system provides. I see these workflows as a prerequisite to the interactions that future registry functions are going to need. Such future functions that centre around resource certification.
uh, i am kinda involved in the resource cert stuff. and i see no mandatory requirement to move to web only.
randy

Hi Randy,
On 09/08/2006, at 5:46 PM, Randy Bush wrote:
and other than the 'immediate' for which i am not sure i see the absolute need, why is encrypted and signed email satisfactory?
I assume you mean "isn't satisfactory" ;-)
An interactive session, either via atomic REST update or web gui, provides the registrant with a completed transaction conversation in a single session. It provides both the member and the secretariat confirmation that each party received acknowledgement of any modification to data. This is something that I don't believe can be done using email as we know it.
There are also cost considerations here, setting aside what might be technically achievable. APNIC has a successful secured interface in MyAPNIC and it seems to be wasteful of member funds to create a second disparate system to match the same features of MyAPNIC via email, instead of simply extending MyAPNIC to provide member usable and modifiable command line tools that talk XML/REST/HTTPS.
Cheers, Terry -- Terry Manderson email: terry@apnic.net Snr Systems & Network Architect, APNIC sip: info@voip.apnic.net http://www.apnic.net phone: +61 7 3858 3100
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