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Dear Community Members,
In light of the recent discussion about abuse role objects that were created as a result of prop-125, we would like to share background information about this implementation and consult with the community.
APNIC acknowledges this is a known issue caused by a limitation in whois – which requires the phone number and country attributes to be mandatory in role objects. The abuse role objects are auto-generated from IRT objects, where the phone number attribute is optional and the country attribute which does not exist. This resulted in populating the phone number with '+000000000' in the event no phone number was provided in the IRT object and using the country 'ZZ' to indicate the country is unspecified in the IRT object.
The current whois versions in the RIPE NCC and AFRINIC do not include the country attribute and the phone number attribute is treated as optional in role objects - for example, see RIPE NCC's template below:
Attribute Name Presence Repeat Indexed
role: mandatory single lookup key
address: mandatory multiple
phone: optional multiple
fax-no: optional multiple
e-mail: mandatory multiple lookup key
org: optional multiple inverse key
admin-c: optional multiple inverse key
tech-c: optional multiple inverse key
nic-hdl: mandatory single primary/lookup key
remarks: optional multiple
notify: optional multiple inverse key
abuse-mailbox: optional* multiple inverse key
mnt-by: mandatory multiple inverse key
created: generated single
last-modified: generated single
source: mandatory single
A potential solution would be to upgrade APNIC's whois code to duplicate these whois rules. Doing so would result in removing the country attribute from APNIC's role objects altogether, in addition to making the phone number attribute optional. This would ensure that information is accurately reflected in the IRT and abuse role objects.
We would like to hear your feedback or concerns about this proposed change. We plan to present more details during APNIC 52.
Regards,
_______________________________________________________
George Odagi
Senior Internet Resource & Policy Analyst, APNIC
e: helpdesk@apnic.net
p: +61 7 3858 3188
f: +61 7 3858 3199
www.apnic.net
_______________________________________________________
Join the conversation: https://blog.apnic.net/

Anupam Agrawal | India Internet Foundation - Chair | 91 990 399 2838
On 01-Jun-2021, at 10:23 AM, George Odagi <godagi@apnic.net> wrote:* sig-policy: APNIC SIG on resource management policy *Dear Community Members,In light of the recent discussion about abuse role objects that were created as a result of prop-125, we would like to share background information about this implementation and consult with the community.APNIC acknowledges this is a known issue caused by a limitation in whois – which requires the phone number and country attributes to be mandatory in role objects. The abuse role objects are auto-generated from IRT objects, where the phone number attribute is optional and the country attribute which does not exist. This resulted in populating the phone number with '+000000000' in the event no phone number was provided in the IRT object and using the country 'ZZ' to indicate the country is unspecified in the IRT object.The current whois versions in the RIPE NCC and AFRINIC do not include the country attribute and the phone number attribute is treated as optional in role objects - for example, see RIPE NCC's template below:Attribute Name Presence Repeat Indexedrole: mandatory single lookup keyaddress: mandatory multiplephone: optional multiplefax-no: optional multiplee-mail: mandatory multiple lookup keyorg: optional multiple inverse keyadmin-c: optional multiple inverse keytech-c: optional multiple inverse keynic-hdl: mandatory single primary/lookup keyremarks: optional multiplenotify: optional multiple inverse keyabuse-mailbox: optional* multiple inverse keymnt-by: mandatory multiple inverse keycreated: generated singlelast-modified: generated singlesource: mandatory singleA potential solution would be to upgrade APNIC's whois code to duplicate these whois rules. Doing so would result in removing the country attribute from APNIC's role objects altogether, in addition to making the phone number attribute optional. This would ensure that information is accurately reflected in the IRT and abuse role objects.We would like to hear your feedback or concerns about this proposed change. We plan to present more details during APNIC 52.Regards,_______________________________________________________George OdagiSenior Internet Resource & Policy Analyst, APNICp: +61 7 3858 3188f: +61 7 3858 3199_______________________________________________________Join the conversation: https://blog.apnic.net/
_______________________________________________
sig-policy mailing list
sig-policy@lists.apnic.net
https://mailman.apnic.net/mailman/listinfo/sig-policy

Hi Anupam,
Thanks for your feedback.
The country information is already published in other whois attributes such as in the resource records and organization object when querying an IP address or AS number.
Regarding the phone number - once it becomes optional, there is no need to populate with '+000000000' if a phone number has not been published in the IRT object itself. Currently it is forced to include the number as the attribute is mandatory in the role object.
To give you an example of the issue at hand, please see example of IRT and abuse role objects below:
irt: IRT-APNICRANDNET-AU
address: PO Box 3646
address: South Brisbane, QLD 4101
address: Australia
e-mail: helpdesk@apnic.net
abuse-mailbox: helpdesk@apnic.net
admin-c: AR302-AP
tech-c: AR302-AP
auth: # Filtered
remarks: helpdesk@apnic.net was validated on 2021-02-09
mnt-by: MAINT-AU-APNIC-GM85-AP
last-modified: 2021-03-09T01:10:21Z
source: APNIC
role: ABUSE APNICRANDNETAU
address: PO Box 3646
address: South Brisbane, QLD 4101
address: Australia
country: ZZ
phone: +000000000
e-mail: helpdesk@apnic.net
admin-c: AR302-AP
tech-c: AR302-AP
nic-hdl: AA1412-AP
remarks: Generated from irt object IRT-APNICRANDNET-AU
abuse-mailbox: helpdesk@apnic.net
mnt-by: APNIC-ABUSE
last-modified: 2021-03-09T01:10:22Z
source: APNIC
Regards,
_______________________________________________________
George Odagi
Senior Internet Resource & Policy Analyst, APNIC
p: +61 7 3858 3188
f: +61 7 3858 3199
www.apnic.net
_______________________________________________________
Join the conversation: https://blog.apnic.net/
From: Anupam Agrawal <anupamagrawal.in@gmail.com>
Date: Tuesday, 1 June 2021 at 11:13 pm
To: George Odagi <godagi@apnic.net>
Cc: sig-policy@lists.apnic.net <sig-policy@lists.apnic.net>
Subject: Re: [sig-policy] APNIC Whois role object - Proposed changes
Dear George,
Having the country information is definitely an advantage. If the phone number is made optional, then the issue of phone field getting populated with +00000000 will still be there if the phone number is not given.
Pardon my ignorance but the current APNIC model - it is causing an issue exactly where?
Regards
--
________________________________________________________
Anupam Agrawal | India Internet Foundation - Chair | 91 990 399 2838
On 01-Jun-2021, at 10:23 AM, George Odagi <godagi@apnic.net> wrote:
Dear Community Members,
In light of the recent discussion about abuse role objects that were created as a result of prop-125, we would like to share background information about this implementation and consult with the community.
APNIC acknowledges this is a known issue caused by a limitation in whois – which requires the phone number and country attributes to be mandatory in role objects. The abuse role objects are auto-generated from IRT objects, where the phone number attribute is optional and the country attribute which does not exist. This resulted in populating the phone number with '+000000000' in the event no phone number was provided in the IRT object and using the country 'ZZ' to indicate the country is unspecified in the IRT object.
The current whois versions in the RIPE NCC and AFRINIC do not include the country attribute and the phone number attribute is treated as optional in role objects - for example, see RIPE NCC's template below:
Attribute Name Presence Repeat Indexed
role: mandatory single lookup key
address: mandatory multiple
phone: optional multiple
fax-no: optional multiple
e-mail: mandatory multiple lookup key
org: optional multiple inverse key
admin-c: optional multiple inverse key
tech-c: optional multiple inverse key
nic-hdl: mandatory single primary/lookup key
remarks: optional multiple
notify: optional multiple inverse key
abuse-mailbox: optional* multiple inverse key
mnt-by: mandatory multiple inverse key
created: generated single
last-modified: generated single
source: mandatory single
A potential solution would be to upgrade APNIC's whois code to duplicate these whois rules. Doing so would result in removing the country attribute from APNIC's role objects altogether, in addition to making the phone number attribute optional. This would ensure that information is accurately reflected in the IRT and abuse role objects.
We would like to hear your feedback or concerns about this proposed change. We plan to present more details during APNIC 52.
Regards,
_______________________________________________________
George Odagi
Senior Internet Resource & Policy Analyst, APNIC
p: +61 7 3858 3188
f: +61 7 3858 3199
_______________________________________________________
Join the conversation: https://blog.apnic.net/
* sig-policy: APNIC SIG on resource management policy *
_______________________________________________
sig-policy mailing list
sig-policy@lists.apnic.net
https://mailman.apnic.net/mailman/listinfo/sig-policy

Dear Anupam,
Thanks for your participation in this discussion.
I hope George has explained the situation clearly enough. As for whether there is an “issue”, it really isn’t for APNIC staff to comment on that, so I hope other community members will share their views!
All the best,
Paul.
________________________________________________________________________
Paul Wilson, Director-General, APNIC dg@apnic.net
http://www.apnic.net @apnicdg
On 2 Jun 2021, at 13:00, George Odagi wrote:
Hi Anupam,
Thanks for your feedback.
The country information is already published in other whois attributes such as in the resource records and organization object when querying an IP address or AS number.
Regarding the phone number - once it becomes optional, there is no need to populate with '+000000000' if a phone number has not been published in the IRT object itself. Currently it is forced to include the number as the attribute is mandatory in the role object.
To give you an example of the issue at hand, please see example of IRT and abuse role objects below:
irt: IRT-APNICRANDNET-AU
address: PO Box 3646
address: South Brisbane, QLD 4101
address: Australia
e-mail: helpdesk@apnic.net
abuse-mailbox: helpdesk@apnic.net
admin-c: AR302-AP
tech-c: AR302-AP
auth: # Filtered
remarks: helpdesk@apnic.net was validated on 2021-02-09
mnt-by: MAINT-AU-APNIC-GM85-AP
last-modified: 2021-03-09T01:10:21Z
source: APNIC
role: ABUSE APNICRANDNETAU
address: PO Box 3646
address: South Brisbane, QLD 4101
address: Australia
country: ZZ
phone: +000000000
e-mail: helpdesk@apnic.net
admin-c: AR302-AP
tech-c: AR302-AP
nic-hdl: AA1412-AP
remarks: Generated from irt object IRT-APNICRANDNET-AU
abuse-mailbox: helpdesk@apnic.net
mnt-by: APNIC-ABUSE
last-modified: 2021-03-09T01:10:22Z
source: APNIC
Regards,
_______________________________________________________
George Odagi
Senior Internet Resource & Policy Analyst, APNIC
p: +61 7 3858 3188
f: +61 7 3858 3199
www.apnic.net
_______________________________________________________
Join the conversation: https://blog.apnic.net/
From: Anupam Agrawal <anupamagrawal.in@gmail.com>
Date: Tuesday, 1 June 2021 at 11:13 pm
To: George Odagi <godagi@apnic.net>
Cc: sig-policy@lists.apnic.net <sig-policy@lists.apnic.net>
Subject: Re: [sig-policy] APNIC Whois role object - Proposed changesDear George,
Having the country information is definitely an advantage. If the phone number is made optional, then the issue of phone field getting populated with +00000000 will still be there if the phone number is not given.
Pardon my ignorance but the current APNIC model - it is causing an issue exactly where?
Regards
--
________________________________________________________
Anupam Agrawal | India Internet Foundation - Chair | 91 990 399 2838
On 01-Jun-2021, at 10:23 AM, George Odagi <godagi@apnic.net> wrote:
Dear Community Members,
In light of the recent discussion about abuse role objects that were created as a result of prop-125, we would like to share background information about this implementation and consult with the community.
APNIC acknowledges this is a known issue caused by a limitation in whois – which requires the phone number and country attributes to be mandatory in role objects. The abuse role objects are auto-generated from IRT objects, where the phone number attribute is optional and the country attribute which does not exist. This resulted in populating the phone number with '+000000000' in the event no phone number was provided in the IRT object and using the country 'ZZ' to indicate the country is unspecified in the IRT object.
The current whois versions in the RIPE NCC and AFRINIC do not include the country attribute and the phone number attribute is treated as optional in role objects - for example, see RIPE NCC's template below:
Attribute Name Presence Repeat Indexed
role: mandatory single lookup key
address: mandatory multiple
phone: optional multiple
fax-no: optional multiple
e-mail: mandatory multiple lookup key
org: optional multiple inverse key
admin-c: optional multiple inverse key
tech-c: optional multiple inverse key
nic-hdl: mandatory single primary/lookup key
remarks: optional multiple
notify: optional multiple inverse key
abuse-mailbox: optional* multiple inverse key
mnt-by: mandatory multiple inverse key
created: generated single
last-modified: generated single
source: mandatory single
A potential solution would be to upgrade APNIC's whois code to duplicate these whois rules. Doing so would result in removing the country attribute from APNIC's role objects altogether, in addition to making the phone number attribute optional. This would ensure that information is accurately reflected in the IRT and abuse role objects.
We would like to hear your feedback or concerns about this proposed change. We plan to present more details during APNIC 52.
Regards,
_______________________________________________________
George Odagi
Senior Internet Resource & Policy Analyst, APNIC
p: +61 7 3858 3188
f: +61 7 3858 3199
_______________________________________________________
Join the conversation: https://blog.apnic.net/
* sig-policy: APNIC SIG on resource management policy *
_______________________________________________
sig-policy mailing list
sig-policy@lists.apnic.net
https://mailman.apnic.net/mailman/listinfo/sig-policy
* sig-policy: APNIC SIG on resource management policy *
_______________________________________________
sig-policy mailing list
sig-policy@lists.apnic.net
https://mailman.apnic.net/mailman/listinfo/sig-policy

Dear George,
Once the proposed change is done, there will be no difference between the role object & irt object. Assuming, its okay with everyone to move head, is a dependency analysis available with you?
I mean by dependency analysis an exercise to confirm whether or not there is something else which is dependent on role object (being changed) and if there are dependents, whether or not there is an impact of the proposed change.
Regards
Anupam
From: George Odagi
Sent: Wednesday, June 2, 2021 8:30 AM
To: Anupam Agrawal
Cc: sig-policy@lists.apnic.net
Subject: Re: [sig-policy] APNIC Whois role object - Proposed changes
Hi Anupam,
Thanks for your feedback.
The country information is already published in other whois attributes such as in the resource records and organization object when querying an IP address or AS number.
Regarding the phone number - once it becomes optional, there is no need to populate with '+000000000' if a phone number has not been published in the IRT object itself. Currently it is forced to include the number as the attribute is mandatory in the role object.
To give you an example of the issue at hand, please see example of IRT and abuse role objects below:
irt: IRT-APNICRANDNET-AU
address: PO Box 3646
address: South Brisbane, QLD 4101
address: Australia
e-mail: helpdesk@apnic.net
abuse-mailbox: helpdesk@apnic.net
admin-c: AR302-AP
tech-c: AR302-AP
auth: # Filtered
remarks: helpdesk@apnic.net was validated on 2021-02-09
mnt-by: MAINT-AU-APNIC-GM85-AP
last-modified: 2021-03-09T01:10:21Z
source: APNIC
role: ABUSE APNICRANDNETAU
address: PO Box 3646
address: South Brisbane, QLD 4101
address: Australia
country: ZZ
phone: +000000000
e-mail: helpdesk@apnic.net
admin-c: AR302-AP
tech-c: AR302-AP
nic-hdl: AA1412-AP
remarks: Generated from irt object IRT-APNICRANDNET-AU
abuse-mailbox: helpdesk@apnic.net
mnt-by: APNIC-ABUSE
last-modified: 2021-03-09T01:10:22Z
source: APNIC
Regards,
_______________________________________________________
George Odagi
Senior Internet Resource & Policy Analyst, APNIC
p: +61 7 3858 3188
f: +61 7 3858 3199
www.apnic.net
_______________________________________________________
Join the conversation: https://blog.apnic.net/
From: Anupam Agrawal <anupamagrawal.in@gmail.com>
Date: Tuesday, 1 June 2021 at 11:13 pm
To: George Odagi <godagi@apnic.net>
Cc: sig-policy@lists.apnic.net <sig-policy@lists.apnic.net>
Subject: Re: [sig-policy] APNIC Whois role object - Proposed changes
Dear George,
Having the country information is definitely an advantage. If the phone number is made optional, then the issue of phone field getting populated with +00000000 will still be there if the phone number is not given.
Pardon my ignorance but the current APNIC model - it is causing an issue exactly where?
Regards
--
________________________________________________________
Anupam Agrawal | India Internet Foundation - Chair | 91 990 399 2838
On 01-Jun-2021, at 10:23 AM, George Odagi <godagi@apnic.net> wrote:
Dear Community Members,
In light of the recent discussion about abuse role objects that were created as a result of prop-125, we would like to share background information about this implementation and consult with the community.
APNIC acknowledges this is a known issue caused by a limitation in whois – which requires the phone number and country attributes to be mandatory in role objects. The abuse role objects are auto-generated from IRT objects, where the phone number attribute is optional and the country attribute which does not exist. This resulted in populating the phone number with '+000000000' in the event no phone number was provided in the IRT object and using the country 'ZZ' to indicate the country is unspecified in the IRT object.
The current whois versions in the RIPE NCC and AFRINIC do not include the country attribute and the phone number attribute is treated as optional in role objects - for example, see RIPE NCC's template below:
Attribute Name Presence Repeat Indexed
role: mandatory single lookup key
address: mandatory multiple
phone: optional multiple
fax-no: optional multiple
e-mail: mandatory multiple lookup key
org: optional multiple inverse key
admin-c: optional multiple inverse key
tech-c: optional multiple inverse key
nic-hdl: mandatory single primary/lookup key
remarks: optional multiple
notify: optional multiple inverse key
abuse-mailbox: optional* multiple inverse key
mnt-by: mandatory multiple inverse key
created: generated single
last-modified: generated single
source: mandatory single
A potential solution would be to upgrade APNIC's whois code to duplicate these whois rules. Doing so would result in removing the country attribute from APNIC's role objects altogether, in addition to making the phone number attribute optional. This would ensure that information is accurately reflected in the IRT and abuse role objects.
We would like to hear your feedback or concerns about this proposed change. We plan to present more details during APNIC 52.
Regards,
_______________________________________________________
George Odagi
Senior Internet Resource & Policy Analyst, APNIC
p: +61 7 3858 3188
f: +61 7 3858 3199
_______________________________________________________
Join the conversation: https://blog.apnic.net/
* sig-policy: APNIC SIG on resource management policy *
_______________________________________________
sig-policy mailing list
sig-policy@lists.apnic.net
https://mailman.apnic.net/mailman/listinfo/sig-policy

Hi Anupam,
Thanks again for your comments.
Just firstly want to clarify that the role and IRT are two different whois objects with different purposes and we are not proposing to make them the same. You can read more about each object here:
https://www.apnic.net/manage-ip/using-whois/guide/role/
https://www.apnic.net/manage-ip/using-whois/guide/irt/
To accommodate the requirements in prop-125 to implement 'abuse-c', the role object was used to mirror the contact information published in the IRT object.
We will be presenting more details about the proposed change at APNIC 52 to gather wider community feedback and will also share an impact assessment outlining any system changes required (if any). However we believe this is a simple change and should not affect our current systems.
Regards,
_______________________________________________________
George Odagi
Senior Internet Resource & Policy Analyst, APNIC
e: helpdesk@apnic.net
p: +61 7 3858 3188
f: +61 7 3858 3199
www.apnic.net
_______________________________________________________
Join the conversation: https://blog.apnic.net/
From: Anupam Agrawal <anupamagrawal.in@gmail.com>
Date: Friday, 4 June 2021 at 4:30 am
To: George Odagi <godagi@apnic.net>
Cc: sig-policy@lists.apnic.net <sig-policy@lists.apnic.net>
Subject: RE: [sig-policy] APNIC Whois role object - Proposed changes
Dear George,
Once the proposed change is done, there will be no difference between the role object & irt object. Assuming, its okay with everyone to move head, is a dependency analysis available with you?
I mean by dependency analysis an exercise to confirm whether or not there is something else which is dependent on role object (being changed) and if there are dependents, whether or not there is an impact of the proposed change.
Regards
Anupam
From: George Odagi
Sent: Wednesday, June 2, 2021 8:30 AM
To: Anupam Agrawal
Cc: sig-policy@lists.apnic.net
Subject: Re: [sig-policy] APNIC Whois role object - Proposed changes
Hi Anupam,
Thanks for your feedback.
The country information is already published in other whois attributes such as in the resource records and organization object when querying an IP address or AS number.
Regarding the phone number - once it becomes optional, there is no need to populate with '+000000000' if a phone number has not been published in the IRT object itself. Currently it is forced to include the number as the attribute is mandatory in the role object.
To give you an example of the issue at hand, please see example of IRT and abuse role objects below:
irt: IRT-APNICRANDNET-AU
address: PO Box 3646
address: South Brisbane, QLD 4101
address: Australia
e-mail: helpdesk@apnic.net
abuse-mailbox: helpdesk@apnic.net
admin-c: AR302-AP
tech-c: AR302-AP
auth: # Filtered
remarks: helpdesk@apnic.net was validated on 2021-02-09
mnt-by: MAINT-AU-APNIC-GM85-AP
last-modified: 2021-03-09T01:10:21Z
source: APNIC
role: ABUSE APNICRANDNETAU
address: PO Box 3646
address: South Brisbane, QLD 4101
address: Australia
country: ZZ
phone: +000000000
e-mail: helpdesk@apnic.net
admin-c: AR302-AP
tech-c: AR302-AP
nic-hdl: AA1412-AP
remarks: Generated from irt object IRT-APNICRANDNET-AU
abuse-mailbox: helpdesk@apnic.net
mnt-by: APNIC-ABUSE
last-modified: 2021-03-09T01:10:22Z
source: APNIC
Regards,
_______________________________________________________
George Odagi
Senior Internet Resource & Policy Analyst, APNIC
p: +61 7 3858 3188
f: +61 7 3858 3199
www.apnic.net
_______________________________________________________
Join the conversation: https://blog.apnic.net/
From: Anupam Agrawal <anupamagrawal.in@gmail.com>
Date: Tuesday, 1 June 2021 at 11:13 pm
To: George Odagi <godagi@apnic.net>
Cc: sig-policy@lists.apnic.net <sig-policy@lists.apnic.net>
Subject: Re: [sig-policy] APNIC Whois role object - Proposed changes
Dear George,
Having the country information is definitely an advantage. If the phone number is made optional, then the issue of phone field getting populated with +00000000 will still be there if the phone number is not given.
Pardon my ignorance but the current APNIC model - it is causing an issue exactly where?
Regards
--
________________________________________________________
Anupam Agrawal | India Internet Foundation - Chair | 91 990 399 2838
On 01-Jun-2021, at 10:23 AM, George Odagi <godagi@apnic.net> wrote:
Dear Community Members,
In light of the recent discussion about abuse role objects that were created as a result of prop-125, we would like to share background information about this implementation and consult with the community.
APNIC acknowledges this is a known issue caused by a limitation in whois – which requires the phone number and country attributes to be mandatory in role objects. The abuse role objects are auto-generated from IRT objects, where the phone number attribute is optional and the country attribute which does not exist. This resulted in populating the phone number with '+000000000' in the event no phone number was provided in the IRT object and using the country 'ZZ' to indicate the country is unspecified in the IRT object.
The current whois versions in the RIPE NCC and AFRINIC do not include the country attribute and the phone number attribute is treated as optional in role objects - for example, see RIPE NCC's template below:
Attribute Name Presence Repeat Indexed
role: mandatory single lookup key
address: mandatory multiple
phone: optional multiple
fax-no: optional multiple
e-mail: mandatory multiple lookup key
org: optional multiple inverse key
admin-c: optional multiple inverse key
tech-c: optional multiple inverse key
nic-hdl: mandatory single primary/lookup key
remarks: optional multiple
notify: optional multiple inverse key
abuse-mailbox: optional* multiple inverse key
mnt-by: mandatory multiple inverse key
created: generated single
last-modified: generated single
source: mandatory single
A potential solution would be to upgrade APNIC's whois code to duplicate these whois rules. Doing so would result in removing the country attribute from APNIC's role objects altogether, in addition to making the phone number attribute optional. This would ensure that information is accurately reflected in the IRT and abuse role objects.
We would like to hear your feedback or concerns about this proposed change. We plan to present more details during APNIC 52.
Regards,
_______________________________________________________
George Odagi
Senior Internet Resource & Policy Analyst, APNIC
p: +61 7 3858 3188
f: +61 7 3858 3199
_______________________________________________________
Join the conversation: https://blog.apnic.net/
* sig-policy: APNIC SIG on resource management policy *
_______________________________________________
sig-policy mailing list
sig-policy@lists.apnic.net
https://mailman.apnic.net/mailman/listinfo/sig-policy

Having the country information is definitely an advantage. If the phone number is made optional, then the issue of phone field getting populated with +00000000 will still be there if the phone number is not given.
Pardon my ignorance but the current APNIC model - it is causing an issue exactly where?

Anupam Agrawal | India Internet Foundation - Chair | 91 990 399 2838
On 02-Jun-2021, at 6:51 PM, Aftab Siddiqui <aftab.siddiqui@gmail.com> wrote:Hi Anupam bhai,Having the country information is definitely an advantage. If the phone number is made optional, then the issue of phone field getting populated with +00000000 will still be there if the phone number is not given.I totally agree that country information (Country Code) is important but we can lookup that info in inetnum/inet6num, autnum, organization and person objects where Country attribute is mandatory.The current reason for filling a phone number with +00000000 is because it's a mandatory attribute and can't be left blank, once it becomes an optional attribute then there is no need to fill it up at all.Pardon my ignorance but the current APNIC model - it is causing an issue exactly where?The new Abuse role object was created by APNIC (adding IRT object data + bogus data) as the consequence of adding abuse-c attribute, it was suggested in prop-125.Why does it matter to get rid of bogus data? - We have been trying to clean up the whois data for a long time, even prop-125 was an effort towards the same thing and adding a new role object with some bogus data is definitely not something we should ignore. OTOH, yes it doesn't impact while parsing the object for the abuse email.

As I understand, the template being used to implement prop-125 is of role object where in the data flows from irt object. Now as country does not exist and phone number is optional in irt object but the role object template has both country and phone number mandatory, the implementation was done by making country as ZZ and in case where phone number is not there in irt, it is hard coded to appear as +0000000.
Now the way ahead being suggested is to change the role object template wherein country will be removed and phone number will be made optional. So unless there is a pressing need to use the role object template, to fix this, if the irt object template is considered for creating abuse role object instead of role object template, there is possibly no requirement to change the role object template.

You have put in numbers which definitely helps in visualizing the issue at hand. Thanks for that. Will it be possible to get this role object, country records with ZZ and +00000000 data records grouped by the APNIC membership tiers? Just to understand where is the problem occurring and why in role objects data. Am I missing something?
Regards
Anupam
From: Aftab Siddiqui
Sent: Thursday, June 3, 2021 4:41 PM
To: Anupam Agrawal
Cc: George Odagi; sig-policy@lists.apnic.net
Subject: Re: [sig-policy] APNIC Whois role object - Proposed changes
As I understand, the template being used to implement prop-125 is of role object where in the data flows from irt object. Now as country does not exist and phone number is optional in irt object but the role object template has both country and phone number mandatory, the implementation was done by making country as ZZ and in case where phone number is not there in irt, it is hard coded to appear as +0000000.
That's correct.
Now the way ahead being suggested is to change the role object template wherein country will be removed and phone number will be made optional. So unless there is a pressing need to use the role object template, to fix this, if the irt object template is considered for creating abuse role object instead of role object template, there is possibly no requirement to change the role object template.
I do agree with APNIC's suggestion. Currently there are 28260 role objects in the APNIC whois db and 12066 role objects have ZZ as their Country and 11851 role objects have +000000000 as the phone number, not sure why there is discrepancy in the numbers. I think its a big enough problem at the moment, which can be fixed by updating the code.
APNIC and AFRINIC implemented IRT objects which is a mntner object while other RIRs implemented abuse-c (role object). To keep it consistent with other RIRs it was suggested to use abuse-c in APNIC whois db as well (prop-125 was specifically for the validation of IRT, nothing else). If the consensus is to keep using the old code (which they have to upgrade sooner or later) then we can simply get rid of Abuse role object.
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